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Incursion 'Things'

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Author
Sean Sonnach
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#281 - 2014-07-04 10:49:48 UTC
I think it generally accepted that assault site need fixing, and it looks like CCP are already addressing that somewhat, but maybe altering the ship limitations is best.

Rats on gates doesn't make much sense in HS. Too many innocent bystanders and it really is not needed.

VGs need more sites, I think increasing to 10 sites per system would be good, as they are extremely busy at times.

Scout sites need to be worth doing with a small group, and I like the previous suggestion that they should be something a few VG runners can do when then haven't got fleets. This would certainly open up the Low Sec site more, as currently there is absolutely no point in running scouts in Low.

Low sec needs a little love, but not too much. I believe that the main problem is that a lot of PVP orientated players tend to scorn incursions in general, and have no idea how to fly low spawns as a result. in tandem, HS incursion runners are not prepared to risk their ships in LS. Only a small few people realize you can get a healthy mix of isk making and pvp from these sites, and you can do it in sensible/pvp ships with equivalent isk/hr to HS and more, with the added bonus of people coming to you for pvp as apposed to roaming around looking for fights. I've tried to work on this problem as a player with mixed results.

I think a tweak in the reward ratio for low sites, just slightly could tip the balance so people will make use of these sites, and fight over them. But not to much to make it worth monopolizing by larger groups.

Also, I think more low sec spawns would be good, currently they are very limited.

Finally since incursions are very popular, and one of the most interesting ways to PVE in the game, I would suggest a decrease in the incursion respawn timers, and possible in increase in the number of simultaneous active incursions, in HS, LS and Null respectively. The reason I suggest a respawn timer change is, if an incursion(lets say the last one up) goes down, usually at the end of a TZ(e.g. EU), then the TZ that kills it go to bed and get up the next day to a new incursion usually. But the people in the opposite TZ dont get an incursion spawn happen, because the wake up to it just popping, and it will not respawn before their bed time. This bed time business sounds a little shoddy, but you catch my drift?

Some ideas about a HS only carrier are interesting, if it could fit say 4 fit BS, and be limited to HS like caps are limited to low/null. But it may be a step too far in terms of traveling advantages.

In general, I think incursion runners are not overly enthusiastic about CCP meddling with incursions, as the communities are strong, and people fear a change for the worse rather than better, so it should be very carefully approached. I think incursions are one of the most successful parts of the game and if that was changed a lot of people's interest in Eve would decrease.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#282 - 2014-07-04 10:51:05 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Aren't there TWO possible solutions to the 1 gated site in assault systems?

Either remove it or put more of them in so that you carry a set of ships in preparation of different needs

m

This is assuming that everyone carries a set of ships with them...


What if we asked for a new ship that could carry say a BS and a cruiser or two. Incursion level carrier that works in hisec.

m


Well a Orca already does this, however another hull that is able to carry rigged BS(at least 2) in a ship maintenance bay at a bit faster speed would be nice for people doing logistics for bigger corps/alliances and people that have to relocate often(like people flying Incs). So basically like a Orca with a bigger ship maintenance array, but no ore bay/corp hangar and only like 5k cargo to stuff in some spare mods, drones, cap boosters and ammo.

Basically the same utility as you have for low/0.0 with carrier but for conventional gate travel.

As much as I would love to see this I worry about dropping an Incursion ship in a slow moving target, currently the Orca can carry both Ore and ships so they are viewed as possible targets of opportunity, a specificly designed ship to carry your 1 billion ISK Incursion rigged BS hull, and quite possibly (Most likely) your 3 to 10 billion in modules would be like drawing moths to the flame, or gankers to the biggest piñata.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#283 - 2014-07-04 12:23:44 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Aren't there TWO possible solutions to the 1 gated site in assault systems?

Either remove it or put more of them in so that you carry a set of ships in preparation of different needs

m

This is assuming that everyone carries a set of ships with them...


What if we asked for a new ship that could carry say a BS and a cruiser or two. Incursion level carrier that works in hisec.

m


Well a Orca already does this, however another hull that is able to carry rigged BS(at least 2) in a ship maintenance bay at a bit faster speed would be nice for people doing logistics for bigger corps/alliances and people that have to relocate often(like people flying Incs). So basically like a Orca with a bigger ship maintenance array, but no ore bay/corp hangar and only like 5k cargo to stuff in some spare mods, drones, cap boosters and ammo.

Basically the same utility as you have for low/0.0 with carrier but for conventional gate travel.

As much as I would love to see this I worry about dropping an Incursion ship in a slow moving target, currently the Orca can carry both Ore and ships so they are viewed as possible targets of opportunity, a specificly designed ship to carry your 1 billion ISK Incursion rigged BS hull, and quite possibly (Most likely) your 3 to 10 billion in modules would be like drawing moths to the flame, or gankers to the biggest piñata.


Well not every BS I have in the focus is that expensive, I tend to move a lot of T1 BS, T1 Logis, faction Cruisers or BCs for the loan out system to and would probably never use it for my more expensive BS. I am very sure ships form the ship maintenance bay can't drop on ship destruction and the modules on them are not shown with a cargo scanner, what means that you could still destroy this kind of ship transporters, but it wouldn't provide ISK in the end(if you don't have very expensive mods in the normal cargo).

There also also option to move the expensive mods separately in a different ship(like a blockade runner), like some people do it.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#284 - 2014-07-04 12:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Jill Antaris wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

As much as I would love to see this I worry about dropping an Incursion ship in a slow moving target, currently the Orca can carry both Ore and ships so they are viewed as possible targets of opportunity, a specificly designed ship to carry your 1 billion ISK Incursion rigged BS hull, and quite possibly (Most likely) your 3 to 10 billion in modules would be like drawing moths to the flame, or gankers to the biggest piñata.


Well not every BS I have in the focus is that expensive, I tend to move a lot of T1 BS, T1 Logis, faction Cruisers or BCs for the loan out system to and would probably never use it for my more expensive BS. I am very sure ships form the ship maintenance bay can't drop on ship destruction and the modules on them are not shown with a cargo scanner, what means that you could still destroy this kind of ship transporters, but it wouldn't provide ISK in the end(if you don't have very expensive mods in the normal cargo).

There also also option to move the expensive mods separately in a different ship(like a blockade runner), like some people do it.

FYI, I lost an Orca with a fitted Sleipnir, Loki, Scimi (Ship Maintenance bay) and packaged Damnation and assorted frigs (Fleet hangar) items from both dropped as well as individual items from the Sleipnir, and Loki even though the hulls didn't survive. (I know, Silly way to lose two Gist-A types Invuls, Lesson learned) Big smile

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#285 - 2014-07-04 13:34:22 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Aren't there TWO possible solutions to the 1 gated site in assault systems?

Either remove it or put more of them in so that you carry a set of ships in preparation of different needs

m

This is assuming that everyone carries a set of ships with them...


What if we asked for a new ship that could carry say a BS and a cruiser or two. Incursion level carrier that works in hisec.

m


yes

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#286 - 2014-07-04 13:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

This is assuming that everyone carries a set of ships with them...


What if we asked for a new ship that could carry say a BS and a cruiser or two. Incursion level carrier that works in hisec.

m


yes

Even though I worry about the ganker's exposure to massive income and how that would affect them psychologically, perhaps a simple solution would be a relatively expensive RIg that increases the Ship Maintenance bay while reducing Ore Hold, Cargo and/or Fleet hangar. then they don't need to build a whole new ship just allow those that want a ship transport to Rig the orca as such.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Tyrone Alyeh
Dark Matter Specialists
#287 - 2014-07-04 20:46:58 UTC
Problem: High-sec incursions have a disgusting risk/reward ratio, killing efficiency of many aspects of the game (eg, WHs)
Solution: Lower the isk or increase the risk.

Problem: Incursions cause too much inflation by straight-rewarding ISK
Solution: Rewards should be items that other players buy, so money doesn't just "poof" into existence.
Sean Sonnach
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#288 - 2014-07-04 22:05:29 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

This is assuming that everyone carries a set of ships with them...


What if we asked for a new ship that could carry say a BS and a cruiser or two. Incursion level carrier that works in hisec.

m


yes

Even though I worry about the ganker's exposure to massive income and how that would affect them psychologically, perhaps a simple solution would be a relatively expensive RIg that increases the Ship Maintenance bay while reducing Ore Hold, Cargo and/or Fleet hangar. then they don't need to build a whole new ship just allow those that want a ship transport to Rig the orca as such.




Now that sounds quite interesting +1
Sean Sonnach
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#289 - 2014-07-04 22:13:14 UTC
Tyrone Alyeh wrote:
Problem: High-sec incursions have a disgusting risk/reward ratio, killing efficiency of many aspects of the game (eg, WHs)
Solution: Lower the isk or increase the risk.

Problem: Incursions cause too much inflation by straight-rewarding ISK
Solution: Rewards should be items that other players buy, so money doesn't just "poof" into existence.



Isk to risk ratio is pretty fine.

You should come run low sec incursions if you don't like the hs ones, for the extra risk you crave.

Also, arguments like yours fail to take into account how popular incursions are, and how much of an impact on the game it would have to nerf them beyond worth doing.

I expect the OP will be mainly looking for positive feedback from people interested in incursions, and probably ignoring the usual, nerf them there hs incursions isks, no concord response type remarks.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2014-07-04 22:16:57 UTC
Sean Sonnach wrote:


I expect the OP will be mainly looking for positive feedback from people interested in incursions, and probably ignoring the usual, nerf them there hs incursions isks, no concord response type remarks.


already said I would.

putting the document together now, lot of reading and sorting, especially if Include the 10 pager that was linked early on.

STILL have to chat live with some folks,

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#291 - 2014-07-05 00:12:59 UTC
50 Billion Isk in ships that I know of has been lost in incursions to PvP in the last two days. Sorry if that isn't enough PvP risk for you. (& that assumes I know of all the ships lost lately)
PopplerRo
#292 - 2014-07-05 00:48:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
50 Billion Isk in ships that I know of has been lost in incursions to PvP in the last two days. Sorry if that isn't enough PvP risk for you. (& that assumes I know of all the ships lost lately)


Turns out ~40bil was actually lost to the rats, another ~30bil to gank activities and another 8 or so billion isk was lost to concord. While incursion may be widely considered safe they are certainly not idiot proof
Harkin Issier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2014-07-05 10:27:21 UTC
Problem: The tagging sequencer being a pain in our collective rears.

Solution: Allow us to reset the sequencer with a key bind and/or button.

This is a no-brainer QoL fix that shouldn't be to hard to get.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#294 - 2014-07-05 12:33:08 UTC
PopplerRo wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
50 Billion Isk in ships that I know of has been lost in incursions to PvP in the last two days. Sorry if that isn't enough PvP risk for you. (& that assumes I know of all the ships lost lately)


Turns out ~40bil was actually lost to the rats, another ~30bil to gank activities and another 8 or so billion isk was lost to concord. While incursion may be widely considered safe they are certainly not idiot proof

I know of two high end ships which were lost to Pvp activities. The second may not have been posted on a kill board (Or was slightly longer than 2 days ago)
Thanks for the 40 Bil lost to rats figure though. Doesn't even take an idiot for it to happen either. Just someone being a few seconds slow off the mark, or a hard switch or unlucky DC. Though some is certainly an idiot also.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#295 - 2014-07-06 11:12:28 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Thanks guys, this is great, so far.

Oh as for incurison income being out of balance>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ&list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_&index=21 time mark 12:00

As for the rest, duly noted and thank you for keeping it civil, so far

m




Pretty sure he's saying incursions are not a problem as an ISK faucet, not saying anything about ISK/h balance.

What infuriates me is that you earn equal or more ISK/h in your risk-free (ignoring 20b officer gankbaits) highsec farm than I do in a C3 wormhole (I earn 100m/h) with arguably the most risk in Eve.
"But we have to move around and stuff so it's not really that good ISK/h"
Yeah? So do I! I have to crash wormholes or wait them out when there's hostiles or no sites.

Now, I'm not saying CCP should remove CONCORD or anything crazy like that, but they should take a look at risk\reward.
It's not uncommon for me to hear my lowsec and wormhole friends (I don't have any null friends, but I can only assume it's the same there) say they'll log on their incursion alt. Do you honestly think risk\reward is balanced when people from wormhole and lowsec go to highsec to earn ISK?
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#296 - 2014-07-06 11:44:35 UTC
That is because people can not be arsed to put enormous amount of effort into making it possible in Null / Low . You think that it i as easy as X up in an incursion channel and billions start piling in your wallet ? Who the F made it possible for you to just X up ? Who makes sure that the FC's that you fly with are competent ? Who makes sure that you have the correct ship fittings and do not die in sites ? Mm ?

Null and Low incursion are the way they are only because those who reside in those places dont give a damn about them . They are not a priority therefore no effort is given to make them doable and profitable . Ask your Alliance and corp CEO's and stuff to put in enough effort and make the corp / alliance focus on Incursions . You are good at the things that you practice . If there is no practice to make Null/ Low incursion doable then then never will be doable .
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#297 - 2014-07-06 13:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:



Pretty sure he's saying incursions are not a problem as an ISK faucet, not saying anything about ISK/h balance.

What infuriates me is that you earn equal or more ISK/h in your risk-free (ignoring 20b officer gankbaits) highsec farm than I do in a C3 wormhole (I earn 100m/h) with arguably the most risk in Eve.
"But we have to move around and stuff so it's not really that good ISK/h"
Yeah? So do I! I have to crash wormholes or wait them out when there's hostiles or no sites.

Now, I'm not saying CCP should remove CONCORD or anything crazy like that, but they should take a look at risk\reward.
It's not uncommon for me to hear my lowsec and wormhole friends (I don't have any null friends, but I can only assume it's the same there) say they'll log on their incursion alt. Do you honestly think risk\reward is balanced when people from wormhole and lowsec go to highsec to earn ISK?

We have close to 100 Accounts being used to support a 40 man fleet, if you used the same number in a WH would it feel relatively safe?

The effort involved to run Incursions is considerably more than the effort required to run a WH OP, and far more expensive.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#298 - 2014-07-06 14:25:48 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:



Pretty sure he's saying incursions are not a problem as an ISK faucet, not saying anything about ISK/h balance.

What infuriates me is that you earn equal or more ISK/h in your risk-free (ignoring 20b officer gankbaits) highsec farm than I do in a C3 wormhole (I earn 100m/h) with arguably the most risk in Eve.
"But we have to move around and stuff so it's not really that good ISK/h"
Yeah? So do I! I have to crash wormholes or wait them out when there's hostiles or no sites.

Now, I'm not saying CCP should remove CONCORD or anything crazy like that, but they should take a look at risk\reward.
It's not uncommon for me to hear my lowsec and wormhole friends (I don't have any null friends, but I can only assume it's the same there) say they'll log on their incursion alt. Do you honestly think risk\reward is balanced when people from wormhole and lowsec go to highsec to earn ISK?

We have close to 100 Accounts being used to support a 40 man fleet, if you used the same number in a WH would it feel relatively safe?

The effort involved to run Incursions is considerably more than the effort required to run a WH OP, and far more expensive.


Alts turn W-space from suicidal to just very dangerous.
You're saying it takes more effort to run incursions than to to maintain a POS with no reliable highsec access and PVE with vulnerable and often very expensive ships with no local or CONCORD to protect you?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#299 - 2014-07-06 14:45:09 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

We have close to 100 Accounts being used to support a 40 man fleet, if you used the same number in a WH would it feel relatively safe?

The effort involved to run Incursions is considerably more than the effort required to run a WH OP, and far more expensive.


Alts turn W-space from suicidal to just very dangerous.
You're saying it takes more effort to run incursions than to maintain a POS with no reliable highsec access and PVE with vulnerable and often very expensive ships with no local or CONCORD to protect you?

No, I am asking if you dedicated 100 alts to run your WH, and support the 12 alt's you farm with, would it then be relatively safe, easy and risk free.

I would think they average raiding party would not want to take on an 80 man fleet, and the 12 man farm fleet would never notice the 20 that were used for running supplies, checking safe routes, and whatnot.

Or in WH terms, Collapsing unwanted holes, hauling fuel, scanning all sigs, buying/selling supplies ect. ect. You can't really compare the two (Although I made a poor attempt anyways) but if you had the same size of community you would have the relative same amount of safety. Then the problem is a WH life is about limited circles of trust, and not having to deal with Empire, Nul or Low sec politics whereas Incursions are about communities with maximum 'safe' access and dealing with all the joys Highsec and greedy gankers have to offer. Each to their own, but I would caution downplaying things you are apparently not involved in.

That sounds harsher than I intended.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Ra'Shyne Viper
Native Freshfood
#300 - 2014-07-07 07:53:35 UTC
Create more incursion like mechanics for the rest of the pirate faction

DUST 514 player

Ingame name: Vin Vicious