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CSM, pressure CCP to ban IsBoxer.

First post First post
Author
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#81 - 2014-07-05 17:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lykouleon
LtCol RTButts wrote:
CCP may allow currently ISBoxer, but it breaks all rules of the EULA.
- it is a 3rd party software tool
- it accelerate things
- it modifies the User Interface


1. ISBoxer does not "modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." ISBoxer is merely a software for managing multiple clients. No game environment settings are altered by ISBoxer and no gameplay mechanics are altered while using the software.

2. ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." ISBoxer allows for scenarios that spreads the tasks across multiple clients, but each individual iteration of the action being performed by ISBoxer occurs at the same rate as it does on the primary client: ie: at a human rate of input. Specific scripting of actions is in violation of the EULA as the computer then processes those actions at an accelerated rate, but the broadcasting system used by ISBoxer for multiple clients is not performed at an accelerated rate when compared to a primary client.

3. ISBoxer modifies no UI assets in the EVE Online client. All additional assets provided by ISBoxer are dialogs overlayed by the program on top of the EVE client. If anything, it's a modification of information presented on the screen, but there is no actual modifications of the compiled client code and UI elements (unless done through additional scripting which is a no-no).

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Adunh Slavy
#82 - 2014-07-05 20:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Lykouleon wrote:

2. ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." ISBoxer allows for scenarios that spreads the tasks across multiple clients, but each individual iteration of the action being performed by ISBoxer occurs at the same rate as it does on the primary client: ie: at a human rate of input. Specific scripting of actions is in violation of the EULA as the computer then processes those actions at an accelerated rate, but the broadcasting system used by ISBoxer for multiple clients is not performed at an accelerated rate when compared to a primary client.



No one human can switch to each individual client and issue events with the same speed and pointer/mouse accuracy as can be accomplished by one human with the aid of IsBoxer. IsBoxer goes beyond the human rate of input and capabilities, no one human can operate multiple clients as efficiently or at this accelerated rate.

"Accelerated!?" the whiners scream! Yes, accelerated. All of the time required by a human with out IsBoxer is done in the blink of an eye with IsBoxer. Instead of the time it would take a human to switch clients and issue the commands, it's all done automaticly, automated for you, automation.

IsBoxer provides a huge advantage compared to not using it due to automation, that automation provides for accelerated issue of commands to multiple clients. All of that time saved, by the user of IsBoxer, gives advantages far above what is possible by ordinary game play.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-07-05 21:08:41 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

So CCP should not be the one setting and enforcing policies related to a CCP product?


Yep, it is their game and their reputation. If they want to look like double speaking liars, they're more than welcome to do that.

Adrie Atticus wrote:

Accelerated rate has been explained, no character gains anything at an accelerated pace, you are mixing up character and the actual player.

Controlling efficiency is not something which is giving you any gains at accelerated speed.

TL;DR: You think something is unfair and unjust, it's your responsibility to provide proof, not those who uphold the current status quo. You have yet failed to do so.


So you are saying that software, that can send key strokes and mouse clicks to other clients, is no more effiecnet than one person having to to interact with each client?

Your equivocations, and CCP's, are lies.


No, I'm not saying that ISboxer is not more efficient at giving commands to clients than one human alt-tabbing between clients.

I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.
Adunh Slavy
#84 - 2014-07-05 22:13:06 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:


I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.


You rebut it yourself every time you play the equivocation game. it is not my fault your argument rests upon a lie.

You purposefully ignore all of the time saved by the IsBox user, time that would be consumed by normal game play. The IsBox user can start to accumulate resources from all clients right away, the normal user can not. The IsBox user can target, fire, orbit, evade all clients at the same time. A normal user can not, they would have to spend considerably more time and effort controlling all of the clients.

That is what you purposefully ignore and try to assume away, and what makes your argument a lie, time and effort. Time and effort are the only things that have real value in Eve. Anyone with half an ounce of economic sense about Eve knows that.

IsBoxer saves the user Time and Effort. You can try and argue against this fact and I will continue to expose your position for the bull **** that it is.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#85 - 2014-07-06 01:49:55 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:


I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.


You rebut it yourself every time you play the equivocation game. it is not my fault your argument rests upon a lie.

You purposefully ignore all of the time saved by the IsBox user, time that would be consumed by normal game play. The IsBox user can start to accumulate resources from all clients right away, the normal user can not. The IsBox user can target, fire, orbit, evade all clients at the same time. A normal user can not, they would have to spend considerably more time and effort controlling all of the clients.

That is what you purposefully ignore and try to assume away, and what makes your argument a lie, time and effort. Time and effort are the only things that have real value in Eve. Anyone with half an ounce of economic sense about Eve knows that.

IsBoxer saves the user Time and Effort. You can try and argue against this fact and I will continue to expose your position for the bull **** that it is.



Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time

One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.

He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.

more efficient, but not faster
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-07-06 09:26:53 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
That is what you purposefully ignore and try to assume away, and what makes your argument a lie, time and effort. Time and effort are the only things that have real value in Eve. Anyone with half an ounce of economic sense about Eve knows that.

IsBoxer saves the user Time and Effort. You can try and argue against this fact and I will continue to expose your position for the bull **** that it is.


That doesn't still accelerate the gain of anything, being effortless and saving time is exactly the reason to use ISBoxer. This is not barred by the EULA/TOS and would be stupid if you didn't try to optimize your game play by any legal means necessary.

What I'm gathering here is that you are just angry about people being better at the game and want to ban their tools?
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-07-06 13:10:20 UTC
I'm still waiting for an answer to how CCP are supposed to differentiate between a software solution and a hardware solution without flat out banning multiboxing all together.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-07-06 13:13:19 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:


What I'm gathering here is that you are just angry about people being better at the game and want to ban their tools?


I wouldn't say they're better at Eve. Better at time management maybeLol.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2014-07-06 13:23:40 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:

2. ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." ISBoxer allows for scenarios that spreads the tasks across multiple clients, but each individual iteration of the action being performed by ISBoxer occurs at the same rate as it does on the primary client: ie: at a human rate of input. Specific scripting of actions is in violation of the EULA as the computer then processes those actions at an accelerated rate, but the broadcasting system used by ISBoxer for multiple clients is not performed at an accelerated rate when compared to a primary client.



IsBoxer provides a huge advantage compared to not using it due to automation, that automation provides for accelerated issue of commands to multiple clients. All of that time saved, by the user of IsBoxer, gives advantages far above what is possible by ordinary game play.


No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.

Let me give you a real life example. Before I took my last break, I used to routinely run four clients on four separate screens, from two computers using just one mouse and keyboard. No IS Boxer. "But what is this sorcery?" you might ask. I used a software product called synergy that automatically shifts the keyboard and mouse inputs to another computer on the same network simply by dragging the mouse to the edge of the screen. In theory, it scales infinitely, though the need to have physical screens provides a hard limit for how many you could run practically.

All that was required for me to keep mining was occasionally dragging my mouse from one screen to the other, and hitting a few keyboard shortcuts. IS Boxer essentially removes only one step in that process - dragging the mouse. So this "vast difference" you're talking about is marginal at best over other software, or hardware, that provides the same results.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Adunh Slavy
#90 - 2014-07-06 16:29:26 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:


Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time

One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.

He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.

more efficient, but not faster



Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself.

What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets.

Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope.


Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#91 - 2014-07-06 16:39:04 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:

No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.


So do you use IsBoxer now? And if so, why? Do you mean to tell me you spent your money for no reason? Really. Do tell us all how you just throw money away for no reason, oh excuse me, fractions of a second, we're all interested in hearing about it.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

LtCol RTButts
Abandon AII Hope
#92 - 2014-07-06 17:58:15 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

So CCP should not be the one setting and enforcing policies related to a CCP product?


Yep, it is their game and their reputation. If they want to look like double speaking liars, they're more than welcome to do that.

Adrie Atticus wrote:

Accelerated rate has been explained, no character gains anything at an accelerated pace, you are mixing up character and the actual player.

Controlling efficiency is not something which is giving you any gains at accelerated speed.

TL;DR: You think something is unfair and unjust, it's your responsibility to provide proof, not those who uphold the current status quo. You have yet failed to do so.


So you are saying that software, that can send key strokes and mouse clicks to other clients, is no more effiecnet than one person having to to interact with each client?

Your equivocations, and CCP's, are lies.


No, I'm not saying that ISboxer is not more efficient at giving commands to clients than one human alt-tabbing between clients.

I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.


come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.

JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-07-06 18:17:24 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:

No it doesn't but, please, continue to think that. The differences are measured in fractions of a second - the reaction time of the human body.


So do you use IsBoxer now? And if so, why? Do you mean to tell me you spent your money for no reason? Really. Do tell us all how you just throw money away for no reason, oh excuse me, fractions of a second, we're all interested in hearing about it.


You're starting to foam at the mouth there a little bit man. WTF are you on about?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-07-06 19:15:41 UTC
This whole thread reminds me of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck:

Rabbit Season!
Duck Season!
Rabbit Season!
Duck Season!

The game warden has said it's Duck Season, the argument is moot until CCP changes their mind.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-07-06 19:21:43 UTC
LtCol RTButts wrote:
come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.

JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.


One player alt-tabbing at 10 clients vs. 1 player using 10 ISBoxer clients will have a different income because ISBoxer make sit more efficient.

This still doesn't mean that ISBoxer accelerates the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You really have a hard time understanding what is being talked in this thread.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-07-06 23:03:57 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
No one human can switch to each individual client and issue events with the same speed and pointer/mouse accuracy as can be accomplished by one human with the aid of IsBoxer.


Actually with a little bit of thought, you can.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-07-06 23:19:43 UTC
LtCol RTButts wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

So CCP should not be the one setting and enforcing policies related to a CCP product?


Yep, it is their game and their reputation. If they want to look like double speaking liars, they're more than welcome to do that.

Adrie Atticus wrote:

Accelerated rate has been explained, no character gains anything at an accelerated pace, you are mixing up character and the actual player.

Controlling efficiency is not something which is giving you any gains at accelerated speed.

TL;DR: You think something is unfair and unjust, it's your responsibility to provide proof, not those who uphold the current status quo. You have yet failed to do so.


So you are saying that software, that can send key strokes and mouse clicks to other clients, is no more effiecnet than one person having to to interact with each client?

Your equivocations, and CCP's, are lies.


No, I'm not saying that ISboxer is not more efficient at giving commands to clients than one human alt-tabbing between clients.

I did say that ISBoxer does not accelerate the "acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

You have not found a rebuttal to this, I'll lurk around waiting.


come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.

JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.

The entire EULA is on a character/account basis. Character A+B+C being controlled by ISBoxer will achieve the same amount of items within the same time fram as characters X+Y+Z each being controlled by a separate person.

This is the interpretation CCP has ruled with. Its the interpretation you will have to live with.

If you have a problem with it, I really dont think CCP cares, because youll find something else to whine about with players having these insurmountable "advantages" over you.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#98 - 2014-07-07 00:26:56 UTC
LtCol RTButts wrote:
come on, stop talking. show me how you do a vanguard without ISBoxer or any other tool/hardware. show me that is is exactly the same ratio with ALT+TAB and that you have no advantage with it. show me how you can ice min with 40 accounts without tools and haul all the ore at the same time.

JUST show it and stop talking. should be really no big deal with all your arguments.

Pretty easily, in fact. I do escalations without using any ISBoxer features other than window management, did ice/belt mining and multibox ratting for years before even getting ISBoxer, and I did it all well enough.

ISBoxer simplifies things, yes. I actually don't even use the broadcasting features and mostly just use it for window management and managing CPU/FPS across all my clients. If you'd like to see how that's done and (still) doesn't accelerate play, well...you know how to contact me.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#99 - 2014-07-07 22:13:26 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time

One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.

He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.

more efficient, but not faster



Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself.

What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets.

Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope.




See, you are comparing one person, to one person, that is NOT the metric

The metric is account to account

Can 4 people playing their accounts talking on Teamspeak go thru low sec and kill things, yes, arguably better than the ISBoxer if their is logo involved

Where ISBoxer shines is when you have enough to aloha a ship, which still can be achieved by XX number of single players

Is an ISBoxing single person running 10 accounts going to be better than a single person alt-tabbing 10 accounts, **** yes he will, that is why he got ISBoxer in the first place. But does it ACCELERATE the ability to gather things in game?

NO, they are all gathered at the same rate
Nidal Fervor
Doomheim
#100 - 2014-07-08 11:14:34 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


Time and Effort savings aren't mentioned in the Eula in the same way you are saying time

One ISBOXER running 10 ICE miners doesn't not make a single isk more than 10 players Ice mining next to them.

He may do it by himself, he may save time over a single ice miner in getting 200 blocks saved up, but again NO FASTER than if he had 10 computers and 10 accounts, one on each computer.

more efficient, but not faster



Are you even reading your own arguments? You contradict yourself.

What about the mineral miner? What about The PVPer, the ratter, the mission runner and the incursion runner? The vast majority of the UI overhead is reduced for all of them due to automation. They can run around and shoot more rocks, more rats, more targets.

Could a player with out IsBoxer accomplish the same? Nope.




See, you are comparing one person, to one person, that is NOT the metric

The metric is account to account

Can 4 people playing their accounts talking on Teamspeak go thru low sec and kill things, yes, arguably better than the ISBoxer if their is logo involved

Where ISBoxer shines is when you have enough to aloha a ship, which still can be achieved by XX number of single players

Is an ISBoxing single person running 10 accounts going to be better than a single person alt-tabbing 10 accounts, **** yes he will, that is why he got ISBoxer in the first place. But does it ACCELERATE the ability to gather things in game?

NO, they are all gathered at the same rate


By that logic, CCP should stop banning botters, because they earn isk at the same rate as any other account.

1 player botting on 5 or 10 accounts for 7 hours earns the same amount per account as another player playing the same 7 accounts manually for 7 hours. Therefore botting is no different to isboxer and should be allowed.