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Updated Tutorial Feedback

First post
Author
Darkblad
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-06-22 08:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Darkblad wrote:
Another update, SiSi currently is build 742822. I've checked one career agent of each faction and can confirm that:
Cash for Capsuleers 1/10: Repair Systems skill book is only provided by Minmatar Agents. No "alternate tanking skill" from the other three.
Cash for Capsuleers 4/10: Afterburner skill book is only handed out by Minmatar Agents.
This still holds true for Crius Test build 802998. Checked Minmatar and Gallente Career Agents.

Also:
The "Guns and Ammo" Tutorial (opens on accepting Cash Flow for Capsuleers 2/10) states "Most likely, the weapon you have been using so far requires no ammunition.". Not that likely anymore, as new players get their faction's turret weapon from the basic tutorial (Tutorial 11, during Aura's second Mission)

NPEISDRIP

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#22 - 2014-06-29 04:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Salpun wrote:
Fresh pass with industrial changes.

Afterburner given in Mountains of Mole hills does not have this skill book to use it.

First items you are asked to create two Civilian afterburners take an hour to build.

Shuttle asked to create in M of M 8 of 10 takes an hour and a half.

Salvaging tutorial does not remind players you got to loot the can. Same with hacking.

The might need to go out side solar system to get the ore required is clunky. Even saying go gather some Plagioclase would at least leave one leap to make not 2 or more the at this stage of the game.

"While you wait" training should have shown up earlier it only showed up for M out of M 10 of 10.


Update: for build 807582

Time to manufacture fixed for Amarr tutorials.
afterburner has a skill book now.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-06-30 11:12:37 UTC
Some tiny thing:
During Making Mountains out of Molehills 1/10 (which requires player to hand in 1.000 units of veld on Sisi) an agent conversation window is opened while mining at the mission location.
That conversation still states 999 units to be brought to him. Should get changed to 1.000

NPEISDRIP

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2014-07-03 11:26:24 UTC
Deep thanks to you all for your invaluable help.

If you see something in the tutorials or career path missions that still needs fixed then please enter a bug report and slap 'CCP RedDawn' in the title and I'll get to it asap.

Team Genesis

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#25 - 2014-07-03 11:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Deep thanks to you all for your invaluable help.

If you see something in the tutorials or career path missions that still needs fixed then please enter a bug report and slap 'CCP RedDawn' in the title and I'll get to it asap.

np will do

The issue is knowing when you make changes, running the tutorials takes time and changes are hard to spot. It takes time to make a full run thru the tutorials as you know.


What was the fix for the first use of non starter system ore and where to find it?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2014-07-03 14:04:42 UTC
Salpun wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Deep thanks to you all for your invaluable help.

If you see something in the tutorials or career path missions that still needs fixed then please enter a bug report and slap 'CCP RedDawn' in the title and I'll get to it asap.

np will do

The issue is knowing when you make changes, running the tutorials takes time and changes are hard to spot. It takes time to make a full run thru the tutorials as you know.


What was the fix for the first use of non starter system ore and where to find it?


In regards to the ore, I've added in some extra text to the mission 'Making Mountains of Molehills 6 of 10' to inform the players as to which types of ore they are required to reprocess. As for where to find it, I'm leaving that specific part out for now as I don't really want to basically complete the mission for them. Big smile

Team Genesis

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#27 - 2014-07-03 17:00:32 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Salpun wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Deep thanks to you all for your invaluable help.

If you see something in the tutorials or career path missions that still needs fixed then please enter a bug report and slap 'CCP RedDawn' in the title and I'll get to it asap.

np will do

The issue is knowing when you make changes, running the tutorials takes time and changes are hard to spot. It takes time to make a full run thru the tutorials as you know.


What was the fix for the first use of non starter system ore and where to find it?


In regards to the ore, I've added in some extra text to the mission 'Making Mountains of Molehills 6 of 10' to inform the players as to which types of ore they are required to reprocess. As for where to find it, I'm leaving that specific part out for now as I don't really want to basically complete the mission for them. Big smile

Will make a new pass on the NPE tonight or over the weekend.

Telling the player where the information is ie Evelopedia or google itSad Is a important part of the mining / Industrial tutorial. Highlighing the Evelopedia search option in the help menu again at the point where the player needs to use it is just good training.

I highlighted the two evelopedia pages in the industry UI thread I though should be officlilized and then linked in the mining tutorial if that info did not get passed on to you ill find them again and link them in this thread.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Chris Winter
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-07-03 21:10:58 UTC
Starting characters will not have the skill to use the civilian drone in Gallente "Weapon of Choice" mission, since it requires Light Drone Operation which requires Drones 3.

CCP said that one of the goals of the drone skill changes was to reduce the barrier to entry, but they've actually raised the barrier by making drones unusable before Drones 3.
Titus Tallang
EVE University
Ivy League
#29 - 2014-07-03 22:00:40 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Starting characters will not have the skill to use the civilian drone in Gallente "Weapon of Choice" mission, since it requires Light Drone Operation which requires Drones 3.

CCP said that one of the goals of the drone skill changes was to reduce the barrier to entry, but they've actually raised the barrier by making drones unusable before Drones 3.


I have also created a thread on this issue in the Features & Ideas subforum.

Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#30 - 2014-07-04 05:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Did the Caldari NPE string.

Looting window collapsed, text indicated it would not.
90% scale is still broke for the green lines.
First gate jump mission highlighted the gate with out the mission accepted. After going back to accept it the yellow gate did not highlight.
"Things to do while you wait" should show up after the second industrial mission because of the time industry has to train.

The salvaging mission BtB 2 of 10 is still broke with the given civilian savager.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-07-04 07:05:19 UTC
Further things of note. I'll keep this limited to the Basic Missions and Tutorials.
Created bug reports for each as well, with CCP RedDawn in the title:

Aura Tutorial # 04
While other steps in this tutorial highlight UI elements mentioned (Screenshot 1) there's
no Highlighting Panel for the "Agent Missions" Infopanel (Step 4 of 4 in that tutorial, Screeenshot 2)

Some new players actually have trouble finding this infopanel
Might be that such highlighting panels can't be added to infopanels. In that case, a Screenshot embedded into the tutorial should suffice

Aura Tutorial # 09
Step 3/3 states
A green checkmark indicates that the skill has been trained to the required level, a red X means that the skill has not yet been trained at all, and a yellow circle means that you have learned part of the skill but do not yet meet the required level. You want all marks to be green.

How about adding checkmark, cross and circle to that text?

Aura Tutorial # 14
Step 4/4 states
Each type of defensive module will only mend a specific layer - armor repairers won't repair shields, and shield boosters won't boost armor. Your shields will regenerate on their own over time, but armor and structure can only be repaired by activating the appropriate modules or using station repair facilities.

This is an opportunity to blow a strike against double/triple tanking. By adding another paragraph like:
It's usually more effective to only increase the defensive capabilities of one of these layers.
Later in the game, you will learn which layers are a good/common choice for specific ships and tasks.


Aura Tutorial # 18 (not sent using the bug report system)
Quite some players have issues finding the Academy office. Possibly because "the Academy" is often confused with a station. Especially players that chose Imperial Academy, State War Academy or Federal Navy Academy as their character's school might be confused here. This could lead to them docking at a station in the system the mission is located - even though Step 4/4 asks players to warp to a mission location.

Aura Tutorial #24
Step 2/3 states
You should now see a new window detailing the various courses on offer at this station. I encourage you to try these.

Just a slight change: I encourage you to try all of them

As a final note:
Like CCP Rise stated in his FF 2014 presentation about NPE, the Basic Tutorial is to be reblaced with a different approach to teach rookies soon™. Would it be possible to get some information on the current state of this?

NPEISDRIP

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2014-07-04 08:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP RedDawn
Darkblad wrote:
Further things of note. I'll keep this limited to the Basic Missions and Tutorials.
Created bug reports for each as well, with CCP RedDawn in the title:

Aura Tutorial # 04
While other steps in this tutorial highlight UI elements mentioned (Screenshot 1) there's
no Highlighting Panel for the "Agent Missions" Infopanel (Step 4 of 4 in that tutorial, Screeenshot 2)

Some new players actually have trouble finding this infopanel
Might be that such highlighting panels can't be added to infopanels. In that case, a Screenshot embedded into the tutorial should suffice

Aura Tutorial # 09
Step 3/3 states
A green checkmark indicates that the skill has been trained to the required level, a red X means that the skill has not yet been trained at all, and a yellow circle means that you have learned part of the skill but do not yet meet the required level. You want all marks to be green.

How about adding checkmark, cross and circle to that text?

Aura Tutorial # 14
Step 4/4 states
Each type of defensive module will only mend a specific layer - armor repairers won't repair shields, and shield boosters won't boost armor. Your shields will regenerate on their own over time, but armor and structure can only be repaired by activating the appropriate modules or using station repair facilities.

This is an opportunity to blow a strike against double/triple tanking. By adding another paragraph like:
It's usually more effective to only increase the defensive capabilities of one of these layers.
Later in the game, you will learn which layers are a good/common choice for specific ships and tasks.


Aura Tutorial # 18 (not sent using the bug report system)
Quite some players have issues finding the Academy office. Possibly because "the Academy" is often confused with a station. Especially players that chose Imperial Academy, State War Academy or Federal Navy Academy as their character's school might be confused here. This could lead to them docking at a station in the system the mission is located - even though Step 4/4 asks players to warp to a mission location.

Aura Tutorial #24
Step 2/3 states
You should now see a new window detailing the various courses on offer at this station. I encourage you to try these.

Just a slight change: I encourage you to try all of them

As a final note:
Like CCP Rise stated in his FF 2014 presentation about NPE, the Basic Tutorial is to be reblaced with a different approach to teach rookies soon™. Would it be possible to get some information on the current state of this?


I have all these bug reports assigned to me now, thank you.
As for the rebalance of the NPE, I'll chase CCP Rise up later on today and get back to you.

Also, side notes:
The issue with the Civilian Salvager in Balancing the Books 2 of 10 is known, fixed and will be out with the next SISI update.
I'll also look into linking more mining info into the tutorials here and there.

Thanks!

EDIT: In regards to the NPE overhaul, it's happening in chunks. (You've already seen some tooltip changes)
There will be more to come later this year for sure. (That's all I can provide you with at the moment)

Team Genesis

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2014-07-04 09:52:20 UTC
Titus Tallang wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Starting characters will not have the skill to use the civilian drone in Gallente "Weapon of Choice" mission, since it requires Light Drone Operation which requires Drones 3.

CCP said that one of the goals of the drone skill changes was to reduce the barrier to entry, but they've actually raised the barrier by making drones unusable before Drones 3.


I have also created a thread on this issue in the Features & Ideas subforum.


On SISI the only skill requirement to use the Civilian Hobgoblin in the Weapon of Choice mission is Drones 1.

Team Genesis

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#34 - 2014-07-04 22:01:22 UTC
Could you check the 8, 9 and 10's of the Career agents. The mission complete messages while still in the mission pocket are not showing up like they should. At least that is my impression.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#35 - 2014-07-05 17:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Great post about these issues at http://crossingzebras.com/heres-a-rubiks-cube/

My comments:

Great Points. A couple that you did not tackle directly.

The NPE does not have a function like Valkyrie will at launch (via audio prompts) which says you are missing a piece of information or doing something wrong. Do this to fix yourself, IE "Looks like you are missing a skill to make what you are doing easier, you are rich in this world go spend ISK on this skill book you are missing."

Saying you are on your own in text at the end of each of the career agent mission path looses its punch after you do one of them.

The lack of link from basic materials to build things to source can also
be talked about at the basic T1 level. The gathering of information to
find non Trit ore is far from clear.
Every step linking types of ore needed in the industrial UI, to the rocks you need to mine and then reprocess to obtain them, to where you can find the right rocks in the first place. Is more then one obvious link apart. Places that you would think would have this information like the Info panels just
talk their rarity. Even searching the Evelopedia wont find that information until you back out and look up mining in its totality. This issue is currently in work with CCP Reddawn the Dev working on the NPE.

The fact you cant figure out which skills effect "number of lockable
targets" from somewhere on the target management interface but have to
figure it out in the ISIS or checking each skill that is on the market
is just an other example.

The fact that damage dealt by each faction is standardized should be leveraged to help out new players not hidden so players are directed to Eve Survival at the first opportunity.

All solutions will require Dev resources:

When an industrial ISIS was brought up to the devs it was stated it would take a month only working on that just to generate the text. That's not including the time working on how to present the information in the first place.

An info sheet like http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6781003/EvE/Quick%20Reference%20Sheet%20by%20Korgan%20Nailo.pdf could be included in a new section in the help menu called player resources but that might be considered to much information until that information is included in a more game play friendly manner.

The current set of improvements are on Singularity I would suggest players interested in the NPE to download and run thru the current version so rough spots can be identified and fixed.

The new tool tips and new learning structure once they hit Sisi and then TQ will be a significant improvement once the current teething issues like delays are worked out but the long term fixes cannot come soon enough.

Salpun

edit fixed link. Info is old and will be older in Cruis

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#36 - 2014-07-06 12:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
I'd like to thank all the people who have jumped in here and taken the initiative to help test the NPE. Also thank you very much CCP RedDawn for replying. It's really encouraging to see others interested in the NPE.

Also, Salpun, that link to dropbox is broken.
Edit: link was fixed

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#37 - 2014-07-06 15:42:52 UTC
Logix42 wrote:
I'd like to thank all the people who have jumped in here and taken the initiative to help test the NPE. Also thank you very much CCP RedDawn for replying. It's really encouraging to see others interested in the NPE.

Also, Salpun, that link to dropbox is broken.

Fixed Thanks.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2014-07-09 13:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP RedDawn
Salpun wrote:
Great post about these issues at http://crossingzebras.com/heres-a-rubiks-cube/

My comments:

Great Points. A couple that you did not tackle directly.

The NPE does not have a function like Valkyrie will at launch (via audio prompts) which says you are missing a piece of information or doing something wrong. Do this to fix yourself, IE "Looks like you are missing a skill to make what you are doing easier, you are rich in this world go spend ISK on this skill book you are missing."

Saying you are on your own in text at the end of each of the career agent mission path looses its punch after you do one of them.

The lack of link from basic materials to build things to source can also
be talked about at the basic T1 level. The gathering of information to
find non Trit ore is far from clear.
Every step linking types of ore needed in the industrial UI, to the rocks you need to mine and then reprocess to obtain them, to where you can find the right rocks in the first place. Is more then one obvious link apart. Places that you would think would have this information like the Info panels just
talk their rarity. Even searching the Evelopedia wont find that information until you back out and look up mining in its totality. This issue is currently in work with CCP Reddawn the Dev working on the NPE.

The fact you cant figure out which skills effect "number of lockable
targets" from somewhere on the target management interface but have to
figure it out in the ISIS or checking each skill that is on the market
is just an other example.

The fact that damage dealt by each faction is standardized should be leveraged to help out new players not hidden so players are directed to Eve Survival at the first opportunity.

All solutions will require Dev resources:

When an industrial ISIS was brought up to the devs it was stated it would take a month only working on that just to generate the text. That's not including the time working on how to present the information in the first place.

An info sheet like http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6781003/EvE/Quick%20Reference%20Sheet%20by%20Korgan%20Nailo.pdf could be included in a new section in the help menu called player resources but that might be considered to much information until that information is included in a more game play friendly manner.

The current set of improvements are on Singularity I would suggest players interested in the NPE to download and run thru the current version so rough spots can be identified and fixed.

The new tool tips and new learning structure once they hit Sisi and then TQ will be a significant improvement once the current teething issues like delays are worked out but the long term fixes cannot come soon enough.

Salpun

edit fixed link. Info is old and will be older in Cruis


Just a heads up that we have now past our localisation freeze internally. That means that no more text work will be done on the NPC for the Crius release.
I got a bunch of issues fixed but there are still plenty of minor improvements to be made.
I'll be talking to the other teams in regards to how we can improve our NPE experience in the future along with the feedback provided in this thread.

And as usual, if you see anything (text related) to the NPE, Career agents or general missions then please don't hesitate to create a bug report and add CCP RedDawn in the title and I'll either fix it for a post-Crius patch or for our next planned release. (dependent on priority) Big smile

Team Genesis

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#39 - 2014-07-10 00:15:13 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Great post about these issues at http://crossingzebras.com/heres-a-rubiks-cube/

My comments:

Great Points. A couple that you did not tackle directly.

The NPE does not have a function like Valkyrie will at launch (via audio prompts) which says you are missing a piece of information or doing something wrong. Do this to fix yourself, IE "Looks like you are missing a skill to make what you are doing easier, you are rich in this world go spend ISK on this skill book you are missing."

Saying you are on your own in text at the end of each of the career agent mission path looses its punch after you do one of them.

The lack of link from basic materials to build things to source can also
be talked about at the basic T1 level. The gathering of information to
find non Trit ore is far from clear.
Every step linking types of ore needed in the industrial UI, to the rocks you need to mine and then reprocess to obtain them, to where you can find the right rocks in the first place. Is more then one obvious link apart. Places that you would think would have this information like the Info panels just
talk their rarity. Even searching the Evelopedia wont find that information until you back out and look up mining in its totality. This issue is currently in work with CCP Reddawn the Dev working on the NPE.

The fact you cant figure out which skills effect "number of lockable
targets" from somewhere on the target management interface but have to
figure it out in the ISIS or checking each skill that is on the market
is just an other example.

The fact that damage dealt by each faction is standardized should be leveraged to help out new players not hidden so players are directed to Eve Survival at the first opportunity.

All solutions will require Dev resources:

When an industrial ISIS was brought up to the devs it was stated it would take a month only working on that just to generate the text. That's not including the time working on how to present the information in the first place.

An info sheet like http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6781003/EvE/Quick%20Reference%20Sheet%20by%20Korgan%20Nailo.pdf could be included in a new section in the help menu called player resources but that might be considered to much information until that information is included in a more game play friendly manner.

The current set of improvements are on Singularity I would suggest players interested in the NPE to download and run thru the current version so rough spots can be identified and fixed.

The new tool tips and new learning structure once they hit Sisi and then TQ will be a significant improvement once the current teething issues like delays are worked out but the long term fixes cannot come soon enough.

Salpun

edit fixed link. Info is old and will be older in Cruis


Just a heads up that we have now past our localisation freeze internally. That means that no more text work will be done on the NPC for the Crius release.
I got a bunch of issues fixed but there are still plenty of minor improvements to be made.
I'll be talking to the other teams in regards to how we can improve our NPE experience in the future along with the feedback provided in this thread.

And as usual, if you see anything (text related) to the NPE, Career agents or general missions then please don't hesitate to create a bug report and add CCP RedDawn in the title and I'll either fix it for a post-Crius patch or for our next planned release. (dependent on priority) Big smile

Thanks for the info.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-07-11 07:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Salpun wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Fresh pass with industrial changes.

Afterburner given in Mountains of Mole hills does not have this skill book to use it.

First items you are asked to create two Civilian afterburners take an hour to build.

Shuttle asked to create in M of M 8 of 10 takes an hour and a half.

Salvaging tutorial does not remind players you got to loot the can. Same with hacking.

The might need to go out side solar system to get the ore required is clunky. Even saying go gather some Plagioclase would at least leave one leap to make not 2 or more the at this stage of the game.

"While you wait" training should have shown up earlier it only showed up for M out of M 10 of 10.


Update: for build 807582

Time to manufacture fixed for Amarr tutorials.
afterburner has a skill book now.
Can you provide more details about where the Afterburner skillbook is given? My last check had these results:

  • Minmatar Career Mission Cashflow for Capsuleers 4/10 provides the skillbook
  • No skillbook in that mission at the other three factions
  • No skillbook in the Afterburner Tutorial (F12 > Tutorials Tab > Military folder > Afterburner)

This issue appears to be persistent

UPDATE: I'm currently checking the Amarr series of "mountains out of molehills". Mission 4/10 (where you're asked to supply 7000 units of Tritanium) grants the Afterburner Skillbook on accepting that mission. I'll check wether Minmatar Agents (and the others) do that too. Minmatar Military 4/10 would be redundant in giving out the same skillbook then.



As does the one that only the Minmatar Career Agent for Military provides the Repair Systems skillbook . No such skillbook from the Caldari Agent, no Shield Operation Skillbook from the Amarr/Gallente Agent

NPEISDRIP