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[Trading] make ISK from laziness ?
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Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-07-01 16:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Heya,

After some "important" loss and a discussion about the different way to make money in EVE, I'm thinking of the best way to trade in order to fund my others activities.

I - Shipment

It seems that the easiest way to trade is by buying a good on sell order, ship it to a station with a higher buyer price than the seller price you've paid, and sell the good. However, this is kinda boring and time consuming for not that much profit. So I pass on it.

II - Station trading

Here's something that seems way more intresting : place a buyer, get the good and sell it on a higher price that you've bought it. After I've done some of it, I think it could become my main income. So that's what I'd want to develop in a first place, and I'd want you to give me some tips.

Basically, I run one's eye over Jita's market looking for affordable goods with an ok (> 5%) margin and good flow. Once I find it, I set a buyer and wait for someone to sell me the stuff, then I resell it. The hardest part in it, is to get your orders fullfilled.

To this day, I've trade mostly meta 4 stuff, because it's easy to buy due to mission runner's sales. However, the main problem is that you can't place a lot of ISK in a single good, if you want to complete your trade resonably fast (in a few days, maybe a week). And so, I've tried to trade T2 stuff. Mostly T2 guns of all size, T2 Frigates and some (3) T2 cruisers.

Now I've all my wallet on buyers, BUT it's way harder to buy the stuff. Some orders were placed 4 days ago, regularily updated, but aren't fullfiled. Is it a matter of luck ? Am I doing it right ? Otherwise, where do I place my money ?

Thanks to those who'll help me !
Gojira Haginen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-07-01 18:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gojira Haginen
This is my main source of income 'till i started to play EVE again.
I think that i can give you some advice, not in a specific order, as i remember them:

1) It's hard to trade in Jita if you don't have enough time to update your orders. I can keep EVE opened all game and i'm able to update my orders every half hour for about 8-10 hours a day.

2) I suppose you trained your skills, so you can afford just 5% margin. Anyway, in my mind, 5% = 0%. I never trade something that have a lower margin than 15%. I found that Jita provides enough items that can be traded over this value, much more than i can buy. And, for Jita, as it is such a dynamic market, higher margin offers you much better safety net than smaller one.

3) Be careful for margin trading scams. I know i lost about 200 mil ISK on one of those and ended up with some overpriced items. Alot of them. Will cover how i got rid of them. If something looks too good to be true, probably is.

4) Don't sell items just to get rid of them, if you are not gonna make enough profit in the end. And i come back on my margin trading scam. I was scammed, ended up with few million ammunition that i was not able to sell and make a profit. First of all, i checked other markets. Amarr was doing great on that item, so i hauled a part of them and sold there. About 10% of all items that i had. Were not many orders so i just sold them directly, without making sell orders, as it was hard for me to update them. After that, i still had alot of items in Jita. I had an idea about controlling the market. I started to rise up the price of the buy orders by placing small quantities at very high prices. Some of the other players played the .01 game with me, and this was all that i wanted. Kept doing that 'till players that had sell orders felt that they should not wait anymore for their items to sell and just cancel their orders and selling them directly on buying orders. This way, the market on that item freed up and i was able to rise the prices.
*Don't know if my example was is too easy to understand, but i hope it is. My English it's not great, sorry for that.

5) Don't focus on a single type of items. As you said, that you were selling some T3, then you decided to try some T2 items. Market is huge. Buy and sell whatever can bring you big profit as fast as possible.

6) Try to place buy orders that you can hope to be completed fast. Don't think that you can place a buy order and you will have the items in one month. Try to place orders in a way that will allow you to place others next time you open EVE. I always watch "Price History" tab. I always try to place a buy order that is maximum 1/2 of number of items that are traded daily. Same goes for the sales. Sale items as soon as you have them in the hangar. As Broker's fee and taxes are calculates as percentage, there is no point in waiting to have all items that you want to buy to sale them.

7) Don't play "+0.1 game" when it's not needed, and be deceptive when you can. Let's say you want to sell 50 items at 59,98. Someone came and puts one item at 59,97. There is no point in lowering the price at 59,96, as he put only one item. Just wait for that item to sell and you will be first again. By being deceptive i mean trying to trick other player in messing up when he is trying to modify an order. For example, you need to get in front of an 15559,96 order. You can try, if you can afford, doing something like 15539,95. Many players will just watch the last two digits and will mess up by placing and price with .01 lower than yours.

8) Try to find "golden items". I like to call them this way as they actually are. There are some items that don't sell in very high numbers, but steady, and they have huge margins (over 70%). One example, for me, was Ibis. Ibis was an interesting item for Jita. Many beginners will sell them when they will get an upgrade. Most of the time, probably, it's their first trade, selling that Ibis. They will sell at whatever offer will apear on the screen. On the other hand, many times, they will loose them. So, as a capsuleer with maybe a venture in Jita, they will search the market for Ibises and buy one, as they don't know they can get a free one by docking their capsule anywhere they don't have ships. I was buying Ibises with around 7k ISK and was selling them for over 55k. Over 85% margin. Imagine i was selling 50-100 per day. So was a steady profit for about 2 weeks, over 2 mils every day just from selling Ibises.

Can't remember more things now. Will come back when i'll do. Hope my thoughts helps you somehow.

Fly safe!
Scion Lex
The Unspoken Ones
OnlyHoles
#3 - 2014-07-01 18:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Scion Lex
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Heya,

After some "important" loss and a discussion about the different way to make money in EVE, I'm thinking of the best way to trade in order to fund my others activities.

I - Shipment

It seems that the easiest way to trade is by buying a good on sell order, ship it to a station with a higher buyer price than the seller price you've paid, and sell the good. However, this is kinda boring and time consuming for not that much profit. So I pass on it.

II - Station trading

Here's something that seems way more intresting : place a buyer, get the good and sell it on a higher price that you've bought it. After I've done some of it, I think it could become my main income. So that's what I'd want to develop in a first place, and I'd want you to give me some tips.

Basically, I run one's eye over Jita's market looking for affordable goods with an ok (> 5%) margin and good flow. Once I find it, I set a buyer and wait for someone to sell me the stuff, then I resell it. The hardest part in it, is to get your orders fullfilled.

To this day, I've trade mostly meta 4 stuff, because it's easy to buy due to mission runner's sales. However, the main problem is that you can't place a lot of ISK in a single good, if you want to complete your trade resonably fast (in a few days, maybe a week). And so, I've tried to trade T2 stuff. Mostly T2 guns of all size, T2 Frigates and some (3) T2 cruisers.

Now I've all my wallet on buyers, BUT it's way harder to buy the stuff. Some orders were placed 4 days ago, regularily updated, but aren't fullfiled. Is it a matter of luck ? Am I doing it right ? Otherwise, where do I place my money ?

Thanks to those who'll help me !



III - Shipping and Inventory

Place buy order
Place item in inventory/track value/ship
Place sell order

Wanna know the truth? There is no one way, there is no secret. Wanna jump in the deep end of the pool? Go to Jita. And another thing. I am not sure were you get the notion that trading is easy. It's not. It is as time consuming and challenging as any other activity in EVE. Perhaps more so because of its lack of a defined nature. If you are looking for easy/lazy that's a pipe dream.
Adunh Slavy
#4 - 2014-07-01 22:35:14 UTC
Time is your only friend

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Deebo Singleton
#5 - 2014-07-02 01:35:11 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

I - Shipment

It seems that the easiest way to trade is by buying a good on sell order, ship it to a station with a higher buyer price than the seller price you've paid, and sell the good. However, this is kinda boring and time consuming for not that much profit. So I pass on it.


I dunno about easiest. It's the least though required. Like you said, there's not much profit in it. People tend to scoop up incidentally great arbitrage opportunities in a hurry and they don't bebop all over the place for less than a few duckets.

Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

II - Station trading

Here's something that seems way more intresting : place a buyer, get the good and sell it on a higher price that you've bought it. After I've done some of it, I think it could become my main income. So that's what I'd want to develop in a first place, and I'd want you to give me some tips.


Intersting? Not sure I'd go that far, but ok. It's better profit with some capital and if you're willing to babysit orders. If that's your main source of income it damn sure ain't going to be lazy unless you're talking about playing long trades and market fluctuations. Frankly, I think that's a bad move as a rookie, but that's your call.

Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

Basically, I run one's eye over Jita's market looking for affordable goods with an ok (> 5%) margin and good flow. Once I find it, I set a buyer and wait for someone to sell me the stuff, then I resell it. The hardest part in it, is to get your orders fullfilled.


It can be just as hard to sell if you've got competition on that end too. What you're seeing for yourself there is that Jita is chock full of traders, so if you intend to be a daytrading spin-cycle kind of guy, you'd better be prepared to glue your ass to the station seat for quite a while if you want your orders on top and getting filled/bought.

Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

To this day, I've trade mostly meta 4 stuff, because it's easy to buy due to mission runner's sales. However, the main problem is that you can't place a lot of ISK in a single good, if you want to complete your trade resonably fast (in a few days, maybe a week). And so, I've tried to trade T2 stuff. Mostly T2 guns of all size, T2 Frigates and some (3) T2 cruisers.


I don't know how much capital you have to work with, but as a green-ear I would advise against anything with low volume and slow turnover if you wanna pursure the strategy you're talking about here. What you want is higher volume items. Not sky-high volume with no margin. You'll never profit in that atmosphere, but in between the t2 ships that move a few dozen units a day and the minerals that move by the metric assload. I'd tip you off to a few items i'm looking at right now, but you'll need to develope that savvy yourself.

Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

Now I've all my wallet on buyers, BUT it's way harder to buy the stuff. Some orders were placed 4 days ago, regularily updated, but aren't fullfiled. Is it a matter of luck ? Am I doing it right ? Otherwise, where do I place my money ?


Assuming you were able to keep your order on top for a good amount of time, you're either missing the fact that there simply aren't many units being sold or you're being out-bid just before primetime when the units that are sold are moving in and out. Whichever the case may be, the result is the same: you need to get your capital to work elsewhere. Some part of trading is "luck," in that, randomly trawling the market listings can sometimes yeild a missed zero and a windfall, but the majority of it is simply reading the charts and putting your money where it's going to be working for you.

I'd say you're obviously doing it wrong, but I think you know that. As I said, get your money into:

  • As many things as you can, diversity in your orders helps fend off downturns in one part of your portfolio.
  • Things that are moving with enough daily volume that you won't easily miss the wave.
  • Things that have a margin you can effectively work even if the orders narrow by a few percent.


Obligatory: Buy low, sell high.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-07-02 02:08:56 UTC
Deebo Singleton wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

II - Station trading

Here's something that seems way more intresting : place a buyer, get the good and sell it on a higher price that you've bought it. After I've done some of it, I think it could become my main income. So that's what I'd want to develop in a first place, and I'd want you to give me some tips.


Intersting? Not sure I'd go that far, but ok. It's better profit with some capital and if you're willing to babysit orders. If that's your main source of income it damn sure ain't going to be lazy unless you're talking about playing long trades and market fluctuations. Frankly, I think that's a bad move as a rookie, but that's your call.


Heh, I'm not against something better (meaning that any suggestion would be welcome). I've figured out that I could buy a lot of stuff from Jita or wherever I can find high quantities at good prices, and then sell this lot in active PvP area. However, to do this I need an efficient way to find where goods are needed (= more efficient than lurking around the whole universe randomly checking the market), and a capital. I haven't this yet, so I practice more basic stuff.

Deebo Singleton wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:

Now I've all my wallet on buyers, BUT it's way harder to buy the stuff. Some orders were placed 4 days ago, regularily updated, but aren't fullfiled. Is it a matter of luck ? Am I doing it right ? Otherwise, where do I place my money ?


Assuming you were able to keep your order on top for a good amount of time, you're either missing the fact that there simply aren't many units being sold or you're being out-bid just before primetime when the units that are sold are moving in and out. Whichever the case may be, the result is the same: you need to get your capital to work elsewhere. Some part of trading is "luck," in that, randomly trawling the market listings can sometimes yeild a missed zero and a windfall, but the majority of it is simply reading the charts and putting your money where it's going to be working for you.

I'd say you're obviously doing it wrong, but I think you know that. As I said, get your money into:

  • As many things as you can, diversity in your orders helps fend off downturns in one part of your portfolio.
  • Things that are moving with enough daily volume that you won't easily miss the wave.
  • Things that have a margin you can effectively work even if the orders narrow by a few percent.


Obligatory: Buy low, sell high.


I was actually selling only stuff with good turnover. But a good turnover with a nice margin often occurs on cheap goods, meaning that I can't invest a lot of ISK in it. However, I see that having only "high" price order on items with a slow turnover is not good. So as you say I gotta invest money in as many things I can, without forgetting to invest in both slow turnover / high price and fast turnover / low price.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#7 - 2014-07-02 03:46:59 UTC
If you are serious about getting into trading you will eventually want to use eve-central or eve-marketdata API data plus a set of spreadsheets or scripts for remote data.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-07-02 11:20:39 UTC
Buy stuff where supply is high (with buy orders).

Sell stuff where demand is high (with sell orders).

Optimize the logistics to minimize :effort:


A specific example:

- Park a buyer alt in Ourapheh. You have 5 regions within 0-2 jumps.
- Even with low trade skills, you can still place and update buy orders encompassing a good bunch of mission hubs
- Buy small stuff. Salvage is perfect: you can fit billions in a fast BR. You can carry a lot of it even in a covops or inty.
- Once a week, collect it all and haul it to any market. Jita is fine.
- Sell it. Have an alt parked in the selling market to update sell orders

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#9 - 2014-07-02 13:00:26 UTC
The best way to prepare yourself is watch the movie Wallstreet
Lord Zarcam
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-07-02 19:35:47 UTC
I'm making a slow comeback after a 4 year break (well kinda like a break). I made enough station trading in a year to keep my character active and training by buying plexes during my break. But now I'm running outta funds and trying to get back up to speed with all the changes since I've been gone.

As it's been stated above, there is no single or right/wrong way to trade. You will have to figure out what works best for you. You always have to think like a business owner and not a gamer. It takes work, LOTS of work and research. It's not the easiest way to make money.

You have to know where to buy at the best price, Jita is not always the best place. Time is your enemy, inventory has to turn over quickly to be profitable. And you have to find a place to sell, where the demand is high and supply is low.

Trading is like running a business, it will become a 2nd job if you let it. For the average gamer it's too complex and time consuming. You are not blowing stuff up, there's no pretty explosions or sunsets. And if done wrong you WILL loose every penny you put into it.

Trading is easier with multiple alt's but is still very profitable with one character, if you are will to do a little flying back and forth.

Have fun!
Anne Kingston
a Blueprint Holding Corporation
#11 - 2014-07-03 01:32:44 UTC
This title is misleading. Trading is anything but lazy. Mission Running is for lazy. I find the thrill of trade to be an intoxicating drug, finding precious deals and manipulating numbers to engineer a fat wallet. It's a lifestyle choice, really.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-07-03 02:30:42 UTC
Lord Zarcam wrote:
I'm making a slow comeback after a 4 year break (well kinda like a break). I made enough station trading in a year to keep my character active and training by buying plexes during my break. But now I'm running outta funds and trying to get back up to speed with all the changes since I've been gone.

As it's been stated above, there is no single or right/wrong way to trade. You will have to figure out what works best for you. You always have to think like a business owner and not a gamer. It takes work, LOTS of work and research. It's not the easiest way to make money.

You have to know where to buy at the best price, Jita is not always the best place. Time is your enemy, inventory has to turn over quickly to be profitable. And you have to find a place to sell, where the demand is high and supply is low.

Trading is like running a business, it will become a 2nd job if you let it. For the average gamer it's too complex and time consuming. You are not blowing stuff up, there's no pretty explosions or sunsets. And if done wrong you WILL loose every penny you put into it.

Trading is easier with multiple alt's but is still very profitable with one character, if you are will to do a little flying back and forth.

Have fun!


This is what I want to do. Guess I have to find a way to analyze supply and demand. I haven't found any soft able to do that, and as far as I know, eve-central.com trade tools are terrible. Then here are some solutions :

First, I may get a restricted list of goods to trade, and cover every populated region to see the prices and the turnover of each item. This would work for sure, but would restrict me to a small number of items and, even considering this, would be over time consuming. I think it should be repeated as often as possible if I want to keep datas up to date, but **** I don't want to spend 20h a day active on EVE. So this extreme solution seems to not be viable.

Then, as suggested I should try to know when a war is about to rage, where it's taking place, which ship and modules are gonna be used, and stockpile it 'till the price raise. However, I have no clue on how I can do that. If I may know that a conflict is breaking trough any public chan, I guess it's too late. If I want to do that, I need a way to know when and where a conflict a war is going to start.

I could also try to know where most of the stuff you can find on market is produced, to buy from the source and so at lower prices. Of course I know that almost all the things we see on Jita's market are crafted in nullsec. I haven't any way to buy directly from null proder, especially since I don't think that I have enough cash to interest them. But maybe there are some "production hub" in Empire space. Finding such a place may allow me to sell base components at higher prices, and buy products at lower price. However, any indus I know ship himself his stuff to a trade hub to sell it.

Finally, I may try to see where there is active and daily PvP, and which kind of PvP it is. Which items are consumed ? Frigate modules ? Stealth bombers ? Logis ? Then find where all those guys are resuplying and sell them what they need. For exemple, I know that some of the Minmatars militia refit at Hek. So I could bring the stuff they often use to Hek and sell it. However, I need to buy it at lower price to have a nice margin, and on a large scale. One more time, I have no clue on how to do so.

So, here are some ideas. If you guys could tell me if it may be working, and answering those few questions it would be great.

PS : I see that title is confusing. What I meant by this title is that you use the laziness of other people, who won't search for the best price, won't plan what they need and won't ship it to where they are. You do this job for them, and so you earn money. And you can only do so because they're to lazy to do it themselves :)
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-07-03 04:27:47 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Time is your only friend


And a solid supply of Patience.

EVE marketing and trade is rarely a game of instant gratification... but those rare occassions are gratifying nonetheless. Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#14 - 2014-07-03 04:41:36 UTC
Gojira Haginen wrote:
8) Try to find "golden items". I like to call them this way as they actually are. There are some items that don't sell in very high numbers, but steady, and they have huge margins (over 70%). One example, for me, was Ibis. Ibis was an interesting item for Jita. Many beginners will sell them when they will get an upgrade. Most of the time, probably, it's their first trade, selling that Ibis. They will sell at whatever offer will apear on the screen. On the other hand, many times, they will loose them. So, as a capsuleer with maybe a venture in Jita, they will search the market for Ibises and buy one, as they don't know they can get a free one by docking their capsule anywhere they don't have ships. I was buying Ibises with around 7k ISK and was selling them for over 55k. Over 85% margin. Imagine i was selling 50-100 per day. So was a steady profit for about 2 weeks, over 2 mils every day just from selling Ibises.


+1 for ability to trade
-1 for math

Buy at 7k and sell at 55k = 85% margin? Am I missing some hidden costs?

KB

(To be fair, you DID say "over 85%")Big smile

Dum Spiro Spero
Lord Zarcam
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-07-03 19:34:07 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Lord Zarcam wrote:
I'm making a slow comeback after a 4 year break (well kinda like a break). I made enough station trading in a year to keep my character active and training by buying plexes during my break. But now I'm running outta funds and trying to get back up to speed with all the changes since I've been gone.

As it's been stated above, there is no single or right/wrong way to trade. You will have to figure out what works best for you. You always have to think like a business owner and not a gamer. It takes work, LOTS of work and research. It's not the easiest way to make money.

You have to know where to buy at the best price, Jita is not always the best place. Time is your enemy, inventory has to turn over quickly to be profitable. And you have to find a place to sell, where the demand is high and supply is low.

Trading is like running a business, it will become a 2nd job if you let it. For the average gamer it's too complex and time consuming. You are not blowing stuff up, there's no pretty explosions or sunsets. And if done wrong you WILL loose every penny you put into it.

Trading is easier with multiple alt's but is still very profitable with one character, if you are will to do a little flying back and forth.

Have fun!


This is what I want to do. Guess I have to find a way to analyze supply and demand. I haven't found any soft able to do that, and as far as I know, eve-central.com trade tools are terrible. Then here are some solutions :

First, I may get a restricted list of goods to trade, and cover every populated region to see the prices and the turnover of each item. This would work for sure, but would restrict me to a small number of items and, even considering this, would be over time consuming. I think it should be repeated as often as possible if I want to keep datas up to date, but **** I don't want to spend 20h a day active on EVE. So this extreme solution seems to not be viable.

Then, as suggested I should try to know when a war is about to rage, where it's taking place, which ship and modules are gonna be used, and stockpile it 'till the price raise. However, I have no clue on how I can do that. If I may know that a conflict is breaking trough any public chan, I guess it's too late. If I want to do that, I need a way to know when and where a conflict a war is going to start.

I could also try to know where most of the stuff you can find on market is produced, to buy from the source and so at lower prices. Of course I know that almost all the things we see on Jita's market are crafted in nullsec. I haven't any way to buy directly from null proder, especially since I don't think that I have enough cash to interest them. But maybe there are some "production hub" in Empire space. Finding such a place may allow me to sell base components at higher prices, and buy products at lower price. However, any indus I know ship himself his stuff to a trade hub to sell it.

Finally, I may try to see where there is active and daily PvP, and which kind of PvP it is. Which items are consumed ? Frigate modules ? Stealth bombers ? Logis ? Then find where all those guys are resuplying and sell them what they need. For exemple, I know that some of the Minmatars militia refit at Hek. So I could bring the stuff they often use to Hek and sell it. However, I need to buy it at lower price to have a nice margin, and on a large scale. One more time, I have no clue on how to do so.

So, here are some ideas. If you guys could tell me if it may be working, and answering those few questions it would be great.

PS : I see that title is confusing. What I meant by this title is that you use the laziness of other people, who won't search for the best price, won't plan what they need and won't ship it to where they are. You do this job for them, and so you earn money. And you can only do so because they're to lazy to do it themselves :)



Baby steps, start with baby steps until you find what you like doing.

I started with less then a million isk, buying a few pieces of armor that I needed to build the ships I was using but was not available in my home area. When I found a good deal, I would buy 3 or 4. Then resell what I did not use. It took months to get to the stage where I was picking up billions worth of goods to resell. Then buying direct from manufacturers when the price was right. Knowledge of the market was key and it takes a lot of work. Back then, there were not the tools available like today. It's up to you if you want to use them. Like I said, I'm just getting back into the game after a very long break. I'm not sure yet if I want to do all that work again. It will burn you out...hence why I took a 4-year break. But I knew I would be back one day.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#16 - 2014-07-03 21:06:11 UTC
well, I wouldn't call it laziness :P

Lots of good tips here too. I'd pipe in and say keep expanding your portfolio as you go no matter what type of trading you do. Keep adding new and better trading items while removing the ones that are under performing. Learn the items' natural cycles so you don't get caught with your pants down...lol.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Red OverLoad
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-07-13 05:34:59 UTC
Time is money , why not work hard to make more money and buy PLEX in EVE , u would got the much