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The Argument is Over
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Maroxus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-12-06 16:48:30 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


- Sure, the ECM mechanic sucks. Its overall effectiveness is probably fine.

-Liang


- Ecm: Yes, in a duration of 100 hours ecm can be seen to be quite fine, but the pure lack of control for the victim and user makes it awful for usage, and most of all makes it overpowered on some occasions and totally useless on others.

.


ECM drones can get a nerf, but ECM shouldn't be nerfed until Caldari ships as a whole are rebalanced. After the drake, 100mn tengu, and maybe the Naga ... there isn't much in Caldari's ship lineup for PvP.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#62 - 2011-12-06 17:12:39 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Hybrids and lasers both need the same treatment to ammo that projectiles had. There are eight bands to hybrid ammo. That's just confusing. And it would be nice if Amarr had more choices then scorch or MF.


From those eight without considering T2 ammo, we only use antimatter (faction or not) Thorium (faction or not) and eventually Tungsten instead of Iridium (faction or not)

Who needs to have an optimal up to 135k+140falloff (+/-) when your long range engagement is about 130 -/+??
Then wtf about all those different ranges and cap use for ammo completely useless??

1 T1 short range, AM increase sightly op+fall off 10 ->15% and increase base dps by 15->20%

1 T1 med range, Thorium, base gun op+falloff range, increase dps by 25% (at least)

1 T1 long range, Tungsten, increase the already base 40% to 50% range, increase dps by 30-> 35%

T2 RG long range ammo: keep it 60 range, get rid of penalties of all kind, need +15->20% dps

T2 RG short range ammo: bring range penalty from -75% range to -50% range, get rid of all penalties, increase dmg by 15->20%

T2 Blaster short range ammo: get rid of penalties, make sort BS type ship using 1 TE can't overpass 18km op+falloff, increase dps 20%

T2 blaster long range ammo (+25%): get rid of penalties, with 1 TE BS size ships shouldn't shoot further than 25km, increase actual dps for this ammo for about 30% (faction thorium overall has actually better dps in game than T2 blaster ammo even if EFT says no)
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#63 - 2011-12-06 17:19:43 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
The problem I see with them is not that the are too good at kiting but that they are good at kiting while at the same time being equally good at almost everything else.


This, right here, is what still makes me rage.

There are NO kite-fit Minmatar ships which are just as good at "everything else" as other ships. Your typical nanocane gets driven off by a Drake with thunderbolts before it's even got the Drake below 50% shields. Your typical Vaga has half the EHP of your typical Zealot. A kiting rupture is outright terrible if you're not kiting with it. Tornados have less tank than Oracles and Nagas and have less tackle and DPS than Taloses. Nanopests fail against basically everything that can hit out to 20km, because they have terrible ehp and "meh" dps.

There are an incredibly small number of minmatar ships which are imbalanced compared to other races' ships and it has nothing to do with kiting - Thrashers and Sabres come to mind, although I'm not sure how that pans out after the destroyer changes. There's also the Sleip, but that fills an active tanking niche; buffer tanked, an Abso is superior. It's probably more of an issue that the NH/Astarte are bad, rather than that the Sleip/Abso are good.

TL;DR: Stop saying this.


Mental Maverick wrote:
...that they are good at kiting while at the same time being equally good at almost everything else...


Well, I can see how you misunderstood me since that is exactly what I said Oops

That wasn't what i meant to say though. What I meant to say was that while being the masters of kiting Minmatar ships are also very good at a lot of other roles. Tempest, Cane and Rupture are the most obvious examples. You can active armor tank, armor buffer tank, kite... and they are very good at all those roles.
So basicly with the sp you put into the Minmatar line of ships you get a lot more versatility than you do putting it into any other race without a lot of the shortcomings that the other races suffer from. Hence why I think they are so popular and also why i think they need looked at. I don't have any problem at all with the way they are the masters of kiting but I do think that they are a bit too good doing all those other roles at the expense of the other races. Gallente and brawling in particular which might change now with the hybrid buff, but that remains to be seen. I still think Blasters might need a tad more dps to make them the undisputed kings of brawling, but thats just me.

Don't know if I made any more sense this time...
Cameron Freerunner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2011-12-06 17:25:04 UTC
QFWhining about minnie ships. It takes longer to train to use minnie ships proficiently and the number of kills attributed to final blows is almost certainly because of the large scale use welpcat and pest fleets in recent history. BTW final blows is no real indicator other than because of the projectile rate of fire and the fact that they hit as soon as they fire. Each race's ships has its niche. Subcap pvp is minnie. Get over it already.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-12-06 17:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
QFWhining about minnie ships. It takes longer to train to use minnie ships proficiently and the number of kills attributed to final blows is almost certainly because of the large scale use welpcat and pest fleets in recent history. BTW final blows is no real indicator other than because of the projectile rate of fire and the fact that they hit as soon as they fire. Each race's ships has its niche. Subcap pvp is minnie. Get over it already.


It doesn't take longer stop say'in crap.

Try an alt with 5M sp in some wallente ship and another with same sp on minmatar ships then see the difference, if you can't then no one can do whatever for your mental dysfunction.

The difference starts at rookie ships up to BS ships where it's even worst.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2011-12-06 17:47:30 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue that there is no issue with Matar and/or projectiles after this, i just dont know what to say.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

EDIT: Just so my personal (and frankly unimportant) opinion is stated here: I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance.

Anyway, Here are the cold, hard facts:


CCP Diagoras wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:

Maybe we can get some current numbers from CCP? Weapons and ships used this year?

(Final blow is a bit tricky, as high RoF skews that a lot :-))


Final blows, weapon type, 2011 only, PVP only:

Group:
Projectile Weapon 1,455,484
Energy Weapon 392,605
Hybrid Weapon 250,858
Combat Drone 221,329
Heavy Missile 203,896



So the only missile that scored a final blow was heavy one? What about hams and other sizes. You are comparing the heavy missile as though it is a full weapon system like projectiles, energy weapons, drones, and hybrids. Seems a bit silly...
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2011-12-06 18:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Goose99 wrote:
SpaceSquirrels wrote:
Doesnt make them OP... just means they're easier to use....Which is why a missile boat is in second place. Capless, selectable damage, and have to worry less about range and other turret mechanics.



By missileboat, did you mean just drake? And no, it has less to do with "ease", being capless, selectable dmg, and missiles (lulz) and everything to do with drake buffer. Drake is popular despite lulz missiles, not because of it. If it has turret slots, those blob drakes would've been fit differently.Roll

Btw, your cane has launcher highs, so why don't you fill them with hmls and "worry less about range and other turret mechanics?" Oh right, because they suck, and you'd rather fill them with neuts.Lol


Actually, I would much rather have a NanoCane with six missile slots and a dual missile damage bonus than our current 'Cane with 6 turrets and dual projectile damage bonuses. Missiles are vastly superior to projectiles for the purpose of damage projection, and when you're kiting at 20km, damage projection is essential. Projectiles might have more paper DPS, but the real reason why drakes are so often used is because missiles, as a weapon system, are just better than projectiles for nearly every purpose.

You don't need to worry about tracking -> means you can fight while aligned or while escaping
You do just as much DPS to a 60km target as you do to a 2km target -> means you can do full damage while kiting
You have completely switchable damage types at any range -> Far better than Barrage, which is shorter range and limited to exp/kin

The buffer helps Drakes, of course, but if people only flew drakes for the buffer then surely we should see just as much Harbies as Drakes? A Harby can get 98k EHP and superior DPS to a Drake, with turrets. The reason we don't see these Harbies often is because, despite their superior buffer, their DPS stops completely after the 20km mark. On the other hand, Drakes, which have less buffer, are able to hit out perfectly to ~65km.

If Caldari ships on the whole were faster, they would be the ultimate kiting race, due to the epic range of missiles. The fact that they aren't is a shining example of game balance. Instead, the kiting race, Minmatar, gets projectiles, which deal just a little over half their potential DPS when they're actually fighting at their intended range. Projectiles are honestly just not that good for kiting - lasers would be a better kiting platform due to optimal range, missiles would be a better kiting platform due to perfect damage projection, and as Liang so pointed out, hell, even blasters do more DPS at kiting ranges.

So why, then, does everyone say that projectiles are too imbalanced on Minmatar hulls?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2011-12-06 18:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Roosterton wrote:
So why, then, does everyone say that projectiles are too imbalanced on Minmatar hulls?


I'm beginning to think its all about fittings. The cap and speed is nice, but your T1 cruiser requiring AWU5 for one race and WU0 for the other is just a problem - even if the end overall results are about the same. The implication is of course that people look at what they can do with a 20M SP character and rightly see that they'll be more effective in the easier to fit ship.

There's also other interesting things like you have decent (but not great) damage projection and most of the time you're faster than your enemy. IMO these are counterbalanced fairly well though.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#69 - 2011-12-06 18:42:53 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue that there is no issue with Matar and/or projectiles after this, i just dont know what to say.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

EDIT: Just so my personal (and frankly unimportant) opinion is stated here: I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance.

Anyway, Here are the cold, hard facts:


Maybe we can get some current numbers from CCP? Weapons and ships used this year?

(Final blow is a bit tricky, as high RoF skews that a lot :-))


Final blows, weapon type, 2011 only, PVP only:

Group:
Projectile Weapon 1,455,484
Energy Weapon 392,605
Hybrid Weapon 250,858
Combat Drone 221,329
Heavy Missile 203,896



So the only missile that scored a final blow was heavy one? What about hams and other sizes. You are comparing the heavy missile as though it is a full weapon system like projectiles, energy weapons, drones, and hybrids. Seems a bit silly...


Yes, you should split that 1.5 mil projectile weapon component category so that heavy missiles and everything else are pushed off the chart. Also, confirming Cruise missiles kill stuff.

Roosterton wrote:
Goose99 wrote:


By missileboat, did you mean just drake? And no, it has less to do with "ease", being capless, selectable dmg, and missiles (lulz) and everything to do with drake buffer. Drake is popular despite lulz missiles, not because of it. If it has turret slots, those blob drakes would've been fit differently.Roll

Btw, your cane has launcher highs, so why don't you fill them with hmls and "worry less about range and other turret mechanics?" Oh right, because they suck, and you'd rather fill them with neuts.Lol


Actually, I would much rather have a NanoCane with six missile slots and a dual missile damage bonus than our current 'Cane with 6 turrets and dual projectile damage bonuses. Missiles are vastly superior to projectiles for the purpose of damage projection, and when you're kiting at 20km, damage projection is essential. Projectiles might have more paper DPS, but the real reason why drakes are so often used is because missiles, as a weapon system, are just better than projectiles for nearly every purpose.

You don't need to worry about tracking -> means you can fight while aligned or while escaping
You do just as much DPS to a 60km target as you do to a 2km target -> means you can do full damage while kiting
You have completely switchable damage types at any range -> Far better than Barrage, which is shorter range and limited to exp/kin

The buffer helps Drakes, of course, but if people only flew drakes for the buffer then surely we should see just as much Harbies as Drakes? A Harby can get 98k EHP and superior DPS to a Drake, with turrets. The reason we don't see these Harbies often is because, despite their superior buffer, their DPS stops completely after the 20km mark. On the other hand, Drakes, which have less buffer, are able to hit out perfectly to ~65km.

If Caldari ships on the whole were faster, they would be the ultimate kiting race, due to the epic range of missiles. The fact that they aren't is a shining example of game balance. Instead, the kiting race, Minmatar, gets projectiles, which deal just a little over half their potential DPS when they're actually fighting at their intended range. Projectiles are honestly just not that good for kiting - lasers would be a better kiting platform due to optimal range, missiles would be a better kiting platform due to perfect damage projection, and as Liang so pointed out, hell, even blasters do more DPS at kiting ranges.

So why, then, does everyone say that projectiles are too imbalanced on Minmatar hulls?


Kite? Also, confirming that:
-Scorch stops at 20km mark.
-Hml does as much dps at 60km as 2km at kiting speed - all 2 and half dps. Unless the 60km target warps off.
-harby gets 98k ehp, just remove guns, fit a rack of 1600 plates and a head full of Slaves.
-Caldari will be kiting race if point is 60km.
-Falloff curve doesn't exist, Winmatar deals half dmg, as opposed to 85% dps at 50% falloff.
-Lasers are better for kiting, just because
-Liang pointed out Diemost with 2 TEs and null gets 27km including falloff, deals almost no dps at point range/OH range of 24-28km, and goes at 2k m/s. I pointed out Vega with 2 TEs get 50km including falloff, deals 85% dps at point range, and goes at 3k m/s. Liang stops responding. Liang says so, therefore it must be so.Cool
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#70 - 2011-12-06 18:50:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
So why, then, does everyone say that projectiles are too imbalanced on Minmatar hulls?


I'm beginning to think its all about fittings. The cap and speed is nice, but your T1 cruiser requiring AWU5 for one race and WU0 for the other is just a problem - even if the end overall results are about the same. The implication is of course that people look at what they can do with a 20M SP character and rightly see that they'll be more effective in the easier to fit ship.

There's also other interesting things like you have decent (but not great) damage projection and most of the time you're faster than your enemy. IMO these are counterbalanced fairly well though.

-Liang


Yeah I think that may be right. I was going to do similar fits for all of the top tier T1 cruisers to compare what you would get. No fitting mods, largest guns, full tackle pvp mids, largest buffer tank possible. I am curious to see what it will show. Dps/tank/speed/range/etc.

Sadly, I am stuck in meetings all week and wont be able to get to it.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-12-06 18:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
So why, then, does everyone say that projectiles are too imbalanced on Minmatar hulls?


I'm beginning to think its all about fittings. The cap and speed is nice, but your T1 cruiser requiring AWU5 for one race and WU0 for the other is just a problem - even if the end overall results are about the same. The implication is of course that people look at what they can do with a 20M SP character and rightly see that they'll be more effective in the easier to fit ship.

There's also other interesting things like you have decent (but not great) damage projection and most of the time you're faster than your enemy. IMO these are counterbalanced fairly well though.

-Liang


This makes sense, although I'd suggest that this is more of a problem with t1 cruisers rather than projectiles. This sort of fitting imbalance isn't nearly as obvious when comparing Hurricanes to Harbies and Drakes, Vagas to Zealots, Typhoons to Domis to Geddons...

Quote:
Well, I can see how you misunderstood me since that is exactly what I said

That wasn't what i meant to say though. What I meant to say was that while being the masters of kiting Minmatar ships are also very good at a lot of other roles. Tempest, Cane and Rupture are the most obvious examples. You can active armor tank, armor buffer tank, kite... and they are very good at all those roles.
So basicly with the sp you put into the Minmatar line of ships you get a lot more versatility than you do putting it into any other race without a lot of the shortcomings that the other races suffer from. Hence why I think they are so popular and also why i think they need looked at. I don't have any problem at all with the way they are the masters of kiting but I do think that they are a bit too good doing all those other roles at the expense of the other races. Gallente and brawling in particular which might change now with the hybrid buff, but that remains to be seen. I still think Blasters might need a tad more dps to make them the undisputed kings of brawling, but thats just me.

Don't know if I made any more sense this time...


Yeah, it makes a little more sense now. I probably could have inferred this meaning from your original post, so I was a little quick to rage at you. P

While there are some minmatar ships which are good at either brawling or kiting, such as the Hurricane, there are also ships belonging to other races which are good at either brawling or kiting, such as the Drake. If my Hurricane shouldn't be able to brawl, then why should your Drake/Nano ishtar/Shield Zealot/Navy Caracal/Curse be able to kite?
Goose99
#72 - 2011-12-06 19:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
AC grid usage is small enough that cane can fit 2 1600mms after the rack of ACs. Canes don't brawl, not because they can't, but because: why brawl when you can kite.Cool

Kite > brawl. Only the fastest boats can kite, that would be Winmatar. The rest can either brawl (with non Winmatar boats), or pop (to Winmatar boats).
Marz Ghola
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2011-12-06 19:05:53 UTC

buff the other junk, don't nerf. I fly it all anyway, but heed my warming ccp

If you nerf my home brand, i swear to the gods, I will biomass an altEvil
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-12-06 19:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Goose99 wrote:
-Scorch stops at 20km mark.


Yes, it does if you're in a Harby, which is the logical equivalent to compare a Drake to. You could fit a TC to push it a bit further, but it still won't be anywhere near the Drake.

Quote:
-Hml does as much dps at 60km as 2km at kiting speed - all 2 and half dps. Unless the 60km target warps off.


What are you on about? Do you know how missile mechanics work? Distance makes no difference to damage application, and the movement of your ship makes no difference to damage application. The only thing which reduces the damage you're doing is the sig and velocity of your target.

Quote:
-harby gets 98k ehp, just remove guns, fit a rack of 1600 plates and a head full of Slaves.


No, it gets 98k EHP with no slaves and 531 DPS.

[Harbinger, 100K EHP "Beam" Harbinger]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Tracking Computer II
Small Capacitor Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive

Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

Quote:
-Caldari will be kiting race if point is 60km.


Incorrect yet again. A Hurricane shooting a Drake at 20km with RF EMP does a whopping 325 DPS. Drake does 449 including drones. And 20km is generous; add in ganglinks to take that to 30km, and the difference will be even greater.

Quote:
-Falloff curve doesn't exist, Winmatar deals half dmg, as opposed to 85% dps at 50% falloff.


Minmatar deals half damage at falloff, not half falloff. That Hurricane's "base" dps is 650, when it's fighting at 20km it's doing 325; AKA, exactly half. Me saying "a little over half" was actually generous.

"-Lasers are better for kiting, just because"

Pulse harb at 20km: 466 DPS
Hurricane at 20km: 325 DPS

Optimal >>>>> Falloff

"-Liang pointed out Diemost with 2 TEs and null gets 27km including falloff, deals almost no dps at point range/OH range of 24-28km, and goes at 2k m/s. I pointed out Vega with 2 TEs get 50km including falloff, deals 85% dps at point range, and goes at 3k m/s. Liang stops responding. Liang says so, therefore it must be so."

Vaga might apply a greater % of its potential DPS, but that means nothing if the Deimos still deals a higher actual number of DPS. But sure, since you're so utterly incorrect about everything else you said, I'll give it to you that the Vaga may be practically more useful than the Deimos. For kiting. Just because I'm feeling bad for you. Roll
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#75 - 2011-12-06 19:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Goose99 wrote:

-Liang pointed out Diemost with 2 TEs and null gets 27km including falloff, deals almost no dps at point range/OH range of 24-28km, and goes at 2k m/s. I pointed out Vega with 2 TEs get 50km including falloff, deals 85% dps at point range, and goes at 3k m/s. Liang stops responding. Liang says so, therefore it must be so.Cool


I'm sorry, what are you trying to say here? I thought I covered the Deimos in a kiting role fairly well - though I admit I could have used more graphs to illustrate the point.

-Liang

Ed: I literally don't know what you're trying to say. If you're saying the Vaga is somehow outdamaging the Deimos, you're just wrong. If you're saying the Vaga is still better at kiting, you're right - though primarily this is because of speed and shield EHP, not because it does better damage at reasonable ranges.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#76 - 2011-12-06 19:30:00 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

"-Liang pointed out Diemost with 2 TEs and null gets 27km including falloff, deals almost no dps at point range/OH range of 24-28km, and goes at 2k m/s. I pointed out Vega with 2 TEs get 50km including falloff, deals 85% dps at point range, and goes at 3k m/s. Liang stops responding. Liang says so, therefore it must be so."

Vaga might apply a greater % of its potential DPS, but that means nothing if the Deimos still deals a higher actual number of DPS. But sure, since you're so utterly incorrect about everything else you said, I'll give it to you that the Vaga may be practically more useful than the Deimos. For kiting. Just because I'm feeling bad for you. Roll


The big reason to use a Vagabond (for me) is the fact that it has more shield EHP. Although, as long as the Cynabal exists I don't see myself ever flying a Vaga - and I don't even remember the last time I saw one in space.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2011-12-06 19:35:07 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
[quote=Emily Poast]Yes, its over. If you continue to argue that there is no issue with Matar and/or projectiles after this, i just dont know what to say.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

EDIT: Just so my personal (and frankly unimportant) opinion is stated here: I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance.

Anyway, Here are the cold, hard facts:


Maybe we can get some current numbers from CCP? Weapons and ships used this year?

(Final blow is a bit tricky, as high RoF skews that a lot :-))


Final blows, weapon type, 2011 only, PVP only:

Group:
Projectile Weapon 1,455,484
Energy Weapon 392,605
Hybrid Weapon 250,858
Combat Drone 221,329
Heavy Missile 203,896



So the only missile that scored a final blow was heavy one? What about hams and other sizes. You are comparing the heavy missile as though it is a full weapon system like projectiles, energy weapons, drones, and hybrids. Seems a bit silly...


Yes, you should split that 1.5 mil projectile weapon component category so that heavy missiles and everything else are pushed off the chart. Also, confirming Cruise missiles kill stuff.

It is not clear if that included HAMs or not. At the moment, it is implied that hybrids are used more than missiles overall, though I doubt that is the case.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2011-12-06 20:39:59 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
AC grid usage is small enough that cane can fit 2 1600mms after the rack of ACs. Canes don't brawl, not because they can't, but because: why brawl when you can kite.Cool

Kite > brawl. Only the fastest boats can kite, that would be Winmatar. The rest can either brawl (with non Winmatar boats), or pop (to Winmatar boats).


You're just silly if you think only Minmatar ships can kite. Double web nanodrake will kite a nanocane all day long.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2011-12-06 20:40:06 UTC
double post goddamn. these forums suck
Maroxus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-12-06 20:42:54 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Goose99 wrote:


harby gets 98k ehp, just remove guns, fit a rack of 1600 plates and a head full of Slaves.


No, it gets 98k EHP with no slaves and 531 DPS.

[Harbinger, 100K EHP "Beam" Harbinger]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Tracking Computer II
Small Capacitor Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive

Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5



I was wondering WTF you were talking about, but you're including drone dps. Its turret dps with Imperial navy multi is 372 which is less then a drake with 3x bcu and faction scourge (414). You're wrong on :

Roosterton wrote:
A Harby can get 98k EHP and superior DPS to a Drake, with turrets.


Its 386 with focused pulse and you won't have the powergrid to put a propulsion mod + that EHP. Part of the Harb's dps is medium drones and they can die. Especially in lowsec.

The strength of the drake is its balance. Strong buffer, great range, decent dps, easy to use, few weaknesses, and its affordable cost. All gained in a single hml setup.