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These haulers are massively overpowered. Is this a bad thing?
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Datarlon
Sparkle Pony Inc
#1 - 2014-06-30 01:13:35 UTC
I'm talking about the Epithal and Kryos, of course. For two million isk, you've got a ship with a 60km3 cargo hold that is nearly invulnerable in lowsec. With four warpstabs and four cheap medium shield extenders it takes about six people gatecamping to stop one, and for that work they get... tritanium. Null is different because bubbles, but even there you're fielding fifty million isk worth of interdictor to catch a T1 hauler. Yes, I know about the whole specialization thing, but the Kryos "specializes" in the single most-hauled commodity there is, and PI is also a common load. Ammo isn't, quite so much, which is why I'm leaving the Hoarder out of this. More on that in a little bit.

If this had come up in isolation, I'd think that these hulls should be seriously nerfed, which is kind of weird since every one of my active alts flies one or both regularly. But here comes the Crius release, which is going to push a bunch of production down into low. Suddenly, we're going to need a LOT more tritanium down here...

SO, the thing to think about: Does it make sense to leave the Epithal and Kryos in their current form, to make lowsec industry more plausible? If so, might it be useful for the Hoarder's special hold to change over to something more common, like packaged hulls or modules?
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#2 - 2014-06-30 01:30:12 UTC
Considering how many people fly and fit them very badly and lose them as a result, I don't think they need to be changed. Let the few who know what they're doing enjoy them.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2014-06-30 01:33:43 UTC
Get a HIC.
Script the bubble generator to a focused point.
Point anything while ignoring any warp core stabs.
Pass Go.
Collect 200 dollars.


Alternatively... fit up two or three Tornados with 1400mm artillery and faction ammo... alpha the industrials in question (they can't top more than 22,000 effective hitpoints).


Ships that are cheap are not (nor should be) automatically easier to capture by virtue of being cheaper... by the same standard, ships that are more expensive and specialized are not (nor should be) automatically better and/or better able to capture cheaper ships.

The industry and trade people have tools, so do you. Use them.

How did you Veterans start?
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#4 - 2014-06-30 01:49:33 UTC
I think OP is the industry and trade person you are referring to.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

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Bakuhz
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2014-06-30 06:12:45 UTC
Show me on the doll were the hauler touched you? Pirate

seriously if you cant catch them you suck

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2014-06-30 06:28:44 UTC
The second you catch a hauler, they die.
So no, it's not OP that people can actually do industry activities in low security at lower SP investment.

You are complaining about people being smart, and active, and taking risks. This is exactly the sort of behaviour we should generate more of, not less, we need more ships like this who can do their primary role and still escape from gate camps rather than sitting ducks. The more of this we have, the more active low sec space will become.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2014-06-30 08:52:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The second you catch a hauler, they die.
So no, it's not OP that people can actually do industry activities in low security at lower SP investment.

You are complaining about people being smart, and active, and taking risks. This is exactly the sort of behaviour we should generate more of, not less, we need more ships like this who can do their primary role and still escape from gate camps rather than sitting ducks. The more of this we have, the more active low sec space will become.


Well said.
A'Tolkar
Carlson's Raiders
#8 - 2014-06-30 19:10:25 UTC
The Kryos is going to get hit with the nerf bat anyways with Crius. It holds 64,500 m^3 of MINERALS at max skills. With the ore compression changes coming, no one is going to haul minerals. With no MCH, it is going to be ALL about compressed ore. And at that point the DST class of industrial ships is going to be moving around your minerals, albeit in compressed, unrefined form. The compression ratio is anywhere from about 26 to 30. A level 4 transport ship has a 60,000 m^3 fleet hangar. Which means they will be moving 1,560,000 m^3 worth of minerals by moving compressed ore blocks. And they will have better tank as well.
A'Tolkar
Carlson's Raiders
#9 - 2014-06-30 20:10:31 UTC
Datarlon wrote:
I'm talking about the Epithal and Kryos, of course. For two million isk, you've got a ship with a 60km3 cargo hold that is nearly invulnerable in lowsec. With four warpstabs and four cheap medium shield extenders it takes about six people gatecamping to stop one, and for that work they get... tritanium. Null is different because bubbles, but even there you're fielding fifty million isk worth of interdictor to catch a T1 hauler. Yes, I know about the whole specialization thing, but the Kryos "specializes" in the single most-hauled commodity there is, and PI is also a common load. Ammo isn't, quite so much, which is why I'm leaving the Hoarder out of this. More on that in a little bit.

If this had come up in isolation, I'd think that these hulls should be seriously nerfed, which is kind of weird since every one of my active alts flies one or both regularly. But here comes the Crius release, which is going to push a bunch of production down into low. Suddenly, we're going to need a LOT more tritanium down here...

SO, the thing to think about: Does it make sense to leave the Epithal and Kryos in their current form, to make lowsec industry more plausible? If so, might it be useful for the Hoarder's special hold to change over to something more common, like packaged hulls or modules?


And as far as the Epithal, how about a level 5 transport ships Occator? +2 warp stregth AND six low slots? Why use the Epithal at all except for cost of the ship?
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#10 - 2014-06-30 20:29:59 UTC
Moderns industrials' cargoholds outpace their ability to defend them. There's good scaling here. The general high-sec limit on cargohold usage should be defined by the profit margins of gank attempts. On the other end of the spectrum, haulers operating in controlled space should maximize the space available.

I do think you should re-evaluate your gate-camp scenario. It's easier to pull off than you might think.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-06-30 21:46:30 UTC
A'Tolkar wrote:
Datarlon wrote:
I'm talking about the Epithal and Kryos, of course. For two million isk, you've got a ship with a 60km3 cargo hold that is nearly invulnerable in lowsec. With four warpstabs and four cheap medium shield extenders it takes about six people gatecamping to stop one, and for that work they get... tritanium. Null is different because bubbles, but even there you're fielding fifty million isk worth of interdictor to catch a T1 hauler. Yes, I know about the whole specialization thing, but the Kryos "specializes" in the single most-hauled commodity there is, and PI is also a common load. Ammo isn't, quite so much, which is why I'm leaving the Hoarder out of this. More on that in a little bit.

If this had come up in isolation, I'd think that these hulls should be seriously nerfed, which is kind of weird since every one of my active alts flies one or both regularly. But here comes the Crius release, which is going to push a bunch of production down into low. Suddenly, we're going to need a LOT more tritanium down here...

SO, the thing to think about: Does it make sense to leave the Epithal and Kryos in their current form, to make lowsec industry more plausible? If so, might it be useful for the Hoarder's special hold to change over to something more common, like packaged hulls or modules?


And as far as the Epithal, how about a level 5 transport ships Occator? +2 warp stregth AND six low slots? Why use the Epithal at all except for cost of the ship?


If they can arrange to scramble +4 wss, then they could probably also go for a +8. And bumping prevents warping pretty well against ships with a 20s aligntime.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-06-30 22:21:03 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
If they can arrange to scramble +4 wss, then they could probably also go for a +8. And bumping prevents warping pretty well against ships with a 7.5s aligntime.

Fixed it for you. They have midslots.
Netan MalDoran
Hail To The King
The Silent Syndicate
#13 - 2014-06-30 22:27:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The second you catch a hauler, they die.


Not 100% true but I'll give you 90% as I have excaped a few camps and gangs in a tanked Badger.

But I think the OP is a crying pirate that let an Indy with 100 Bil of Morphite slip by. Pirate

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#14 - 2014-06-30 22:52:10 UTC
Netan MalDoran wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The second you catch a hauler, they die.


Not 100% true but I'll give you 90% as I have excaped a few camps and gangs in a tanked Badger.

But I think the OP is a crying pirate that let an Indy with 100 Bil of Morphite slip by. Pirate


I'll have to disagree. OP is a member of a 6 man industry corp that has exactly 0 kills to their name, maybe half a dozen combat ship losses (most of them only half fit or not fit at all. I imagine they were being flown to their destination for sale or something) and almost 2 dozen industrial ship losses.

OP themselves has been a member of the corp for 2 years and lost two ships during the entire time. 2 years ago.

The entire alliance seems to be PvE oriented with a little bit of shenanigans on the part of the main corporation, mostly in high sec. The alliance has killed a total of 1 industrial, and lost 25.

Seems legit. OP is getting bored because the pirates in their part of low sec are incapable of catching them.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Elusive Panda
Public Enemies CO
The Initiative.
#15 - 2014-07-01 06:18:54 UTC
My buddy named his Onyx "Got stabs?".

I'll let you ponder over that.
Code Redd
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-07-01 09:30:20 UTC
One, i reply to this with the first thing i want to say...

as a pvper/camper, you are not automaticly entitled to kill everything that pops onto your grid--things ARE allowed to get away if they can...

with that said, i fly a phobos, almost exclusively, and often against corp policy (went want to stay cheap), when camping a gate. Focused script, gets to 36km, and with a 1010 scan res, a hauler has NO HOPE of getting past that (not a t1 hauler, anyway).

seriously, no amount of stabs will save it. and other than frigs/cloakys/pods, and a few rare, small ship, i ALWAYS get point. infinite point.

Have caught haulers, stabbed domis, ventures, etc etc.

lrn to fly one. Phobos is best, imho (as you can get on the KM with good dps).