These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Coming in Crius

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-06-29 21:58:31 UTC
For someone who does not do any industry; will industry in high sec be worth doing at all? Given the fact that even from the deepest parts of null the product can be shipped to Jita in just a few minutes.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#82 - 2014-06-30 00:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:

This. I can't believe they are going to implement this system where you can't really predict your production costs. But here we are. Based on what is on the test server I think it may be a good idea to just take the summer off and let this **** show that they insist on implementing run its course.


Just do what many are doing... build / buy / stockpile what you need for about 6 months... or 12 months, if you believe, like I do, that it's actually going to take much, much longer for CCP to recover it's stride after so many losses in the "dev" side of things.

Put another way... it's going to get worse before it gets better.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#83 - 2014-06-30 03:56:06 UTC
I hope you guys at CCP are planning on having everyone working double shifts in August, because there are going to be a whole lot of pissed off players when this godawful piece of crap "expansion" wrecks the entire Eve economy.
Qmamoto Kansuke
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#84 - 2014-06-30 07:47:04 UTC
i don't get why all the panic, the market will correct any high pricing if things are expensive to build they will also be expensive to sell no sane producer will shoot himself in the foot.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#85 - 2014-06-30 08:49:29 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
For someone who does not do any industry; will industry in high sec be worth doing at all? Given the fact that even from the deepest parts of null the product can be shipped to Jita in just a few minutes.

This is a fair question. Here's another one:

Sure, it might be easier for new players to get into industry, but what *exactly* is worth their time/effort to build?

Currently, there isn't much a new industry player can build and sell at a reasonable profit, except for ammo and rigs, and a few modules, which have no meta counterparts.

The profit margins on ships, of all types, and T2 modules are very slim due to competition - a new industry player really cannot compete against the older industry players, who have the necessary skills trained up to level 5 to take advantage of every 0.01 ISK, as well as having well-established supply & manufacturing pipelines.

And, unforttunately, most of the T1 modules are useless to use & build. The supply of metas has glutted the market and driven the prices of metas below the build cost of T1 modules, in almost all cases. A long standing problem - still not fixed.

I don't how any of this will be changing in Crius.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#86 - 2014-06-30 11:47:39 UTC
Sigras wrote:
is the CREST API going to give the cost of different types of jobs for different systems?


Yes.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Meytal
Doomheim
#87 - 2014-06-30 12:38:41 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
You still have to hire people to do the manufacturing, thats the reason why You have to pay even on a pos. Its not nano-manufacturing controled mentally by Your clone, its actuall manufacturing with people operation the machines.

Question: If we are hiring people to do the work for us, why do we have to train the skills for research and manufacturing? Shouldn't we instead train team management skills instead of individual research and development skills? And if other people are doing the work for us, why does the manufacturing waste/efficiency and research probability depend on our skills and not the skills of the people we hire?

Answer: logical explanations do not work. This is an ISK sink, plain and simple. That's perfectly okay, CCP just needs to come out and say that it's an ISK sink even though it may or may not make sense in some areas of the game (W-space, Sov Nullsec). I just disagree that the fee should apply to W-space and Sov Null.


Q: And if I have a set of jobs I want to run, why am I forced to hire a second group of people to do the work simultaneously, rather than ask the first group to run the new stuff when they finish what they're working on now.

A: This one I hope is changed, even more so than the first one, since there are reasons to queue (time vs cost tradeoffs) instead of run all jobs simultaneously.

Guttripper wrote:
"Working teams" must be using Jove technology - to be able to travel anywhere in the gaming universe without being seen but arrive safe and sound...

I'll support this Teams concept if I can shoot them, especially in W-space. Groups of people heading into "Unknown" space always arriving safely at their destination, when there may not even exist a route TO that destination? I want that technology.

Torchuban Astrobeard wrote:
They can introduce cost-scaling system for NPC stations but I would prefer the current slot
system to remain for POSes.

This would actually be a perfect solution for W-space, since we don't have unlimited access to "teams" of industrialists and since routes to and from K-space are not always known or available.

Unfortunately, I doubt the mechanics (heh) changes will allow this to happen.
Elisabeth Jane
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-06-30 14:29:40 UTC
Why don't you make it where we are the ones hired?

Around the same lines as the NPC research stuff is done

we go to an agent and based on our skills we are paid if you are hired for a location
that way we will get paid for 'wasting our time' training useless skills, as someone put it...
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2014-06-30 16:09:49 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
For someone who does not do any industry; will industry in high sec be worth doing at all? Given the fact that even from the deepest parts of null the product can be shipped to Jita in just a few minutes.

you are aware that jump freighters cost fuel, right (and that no, you can't ship to jita in just a few minutes you nitwit, no matter how fast you're cynoing you can only get to the lowsec entrance quickly)
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#90 - 2014-06-30 16:55:58 UTC
Quote:
Starbases

Starbases get a number of new benefits for industrial activity and will be easier to build all over New Eden. You can read about the changes in this devblog.


The hyperlink for "in this devblog" breaks, as the parsing of the line is missing the colon between "http" and the double slash.

Quote:
a href="http://http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/starbase-changes-for-crius/">in this devblog./a>


returns...

Quote:
http://http//community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/starbase-changes-for-crius/


...when hovered or clicked, and throws a 502.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#91 - 2014-06-30 17:16:22 UTC
Removed a non constructive post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#92 - 2014-06-30 17:22:29 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
For someone who does not do any industry; will industry in high sec be worth doing at all? Given the fact that even from the deepest parts of null the product can be shipped to Jita in just a few minutes.

you are aware that jump freighters cost fuel, right (and that no, you can't ship to jita in just a few minutes you nitwit, no matter how fast you're cynoing you can only get to the lowsec entrance quickly)


Right...sure.

And some ISBoxer with 5 Viators gets jumped into the closest low sec system via a covert cloak at some STILL ridiculously small price. Suddenly, that ISBoxer has 60,000 cu m of product, like 12,000 combined DCII's or Nano II's, that he can zip to a trade hub at 6 plus AU/sec, while cloaked. He docks in the target trade system, like Jita, at some other station with zero traffic.
He transfers the entire contents of the 5 Viators into a heavily tanked hauling, and then moves from that quiet transfer station to the true trading hub station, in the same system.


ZERO, I repeat, ZERO risk.

So yeah, null sec industrialists will be shipping to Jita in a few minutes.
Oh, and BTW, at current prices (which will be dropping when null sec industry gets geared up), 6,000 DC II's, and 6,000 Nano II's, which equals 60,000 cu m, has a sell value of 6 billlion ISK at current Jita prices, with huge profit margins.

All these profits will all be transferred to the new, much lower cost null sec producers, who will be operating in null sec industrial centres one cyno bridge from high sec.

Bye bye high sec industry in any market with high end margins. Hello high sec manufacturers building large size items with razor thin margins, with uncertain manufacturing costs completely out of their control. Yeah, that will lead to a whole bunch of high sec manufacturers entering the game.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#93 - 2014-06-30 18:00:39 UTC
I get that you are trying to villainize isboxer and everything, but your example is pretty lousy. Heck -- you don't even need to do the last step. The viators in your contrived vignette can just warp to an instadock bookmark at Jita 4-4 CNAP, set destination to said, and engage autopilot while in warp. This will land them in dock range, and they'll automatically dock up without the possibility of being shot at.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2014-06-30 18:21:13 UTC
So from what I have gathered; after the change high sec industry will be completely dead. Teleportation kills again.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-06-30 19:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Anathema Device wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
So yeah, people took months to research a BPO to say level 300, where 90% of results was at level 10 and 99% around 30 iirc?? Soooo Yeahh, noooo, CCP should not recompensate anything in here - If You fealt You actually had advantage by going to insane level let me tel You that advantage was measured in single digit isk values on multi milion isk worth items

The same small gains applies to many level 5 skills, stacking modules, training up Broker Relations, etc. As with most things in the game, small gains multiply quickly into advantage.

Anyone who has worked to earn an advantage, however slight, by following the established game rules/mechanics, is entitiled to be compensated when the advantage is going to be arbitrarily removed from the game.

And, the only ones who tend to argue against such compensation are the ones who did not feel it was worth their time/effort to earn it, and seek now to reach competitive equality with those players, without any investment.

In any case, CCP Greyscale stated that "this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition".

I'm simply asking to hear CCP's version of the "reasonable solution that meet's everyone's legitimate concerns".


Show me a skill that takes months to train from lvl 4 to 5 and gives You less than 1% gain. Just becasue You wasted time for nothing does not mean CCP should compensate You for this.

Sooo many people could not understand or didnt wanted to understand how research was actually working so instead of producing and making profit they have wasted time researching. And this additional research time was never returned in profit later down the road in most cases.

I would agree if the difrences was actually like 5%-10% between lets say 30 and 300


To give some actuall numbers and not work on speculatons and feelings - here we have RAven BPO with max skill at ME0 it costs (based on the prices I have in EVE HQ taht might be off byl will acurately show reduction):
ME 000: 204 891 410
ME 010: 191 191 614
ME 030: 190 308 366
ME 100: 189 971 520
ME 300: 189 873 566

So by going from lvl 10 to level 300 You are reducing the cost of that raven by 1 318 000 more or less. Thats 0,6% reduction in cost. Show me a skill that have that low impact.

And comparing level 30 to level 300 gives 0,2% reduction - three times less.

Pure ROFL...
Right this second the sale price of a Raven in Hek trade hub is 184,994,999.90 isk
While the sale price in Amarr trade hub is 169,123,125.30 isk
Forget any thought of profit using your calculations.

To minimize the isk loss when producing your own Ravens as a small HiSec industrialists then ME has to be greater than 300. Obviously there is the point where increasing ME does not decrease the cost by 1.00 isk but that has always been greater than ME: 010. Given ME has always needed to be above ME:010 people have invested time that CCP is now taking away without compensation. The translation of ME should have been non-linear but CCP took the quick and dirty approach to the conversion. Too late for them to correct the mess they have made of the Blueprint translation.




*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

I wrote that my prices uses whatever i had in EVEHQ and while price total would be wrond the reduction would more or less be corect in percentages

So yeah, if You think that you can cover 20 milion gap made by people who are thinking that minerals they mine is free by going beyond level 300 on raven....
(just for lols here is the price of raven on level 1000 using above prices, 189 837 937 thats about 40 000 ISK less than level 300, go figure it out, do Your own math *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-06-30 19:37:14 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
So yeah, people took months to research a BPO to say level 300, where 90% of results was at level 10 and 99% around 30 iirc?? Soooo Yeahh, noooo, CCP should not recompensate anything in here - If You fealt You actually had advantage by going to insane level let me tel You that advantage was measured in single digit isk values on multi milion isk worth items

Anyone who has worked to earn an advantage, however slight, by following the established game rules/mechanics, is entitiled to be compensated when the advantage is going to be arbitrarily removed from the game.

And, the only ones who tend to argue against such compensation are the ones who did not feel it was worth their time/effort to earn it, and seek now to reach competitive equality with those players, without any investment.

In any case, CCP Greyscale stated that "this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition".

I'm simply asking to hear CCP's version of the "reasonable solution that meet's everyone's legitimate concerns".

Show me a skill that takes months to train from lvl 4 to 5 and gives You less than 1% gain. Just becasue You wasted time for nothing does not mean CCP should compensate You for this.

And, why do you argue so strongly against a reimbursement? How exactly, then, does it negatively affect you, if CCP should choose to reimburse players for the time spent, regardless if you view it to have been "wasted time" and other players did not?

Let's say that CCP chose to remove Titans and SCs from the game. Should the players who flew them be reimbursed for time/effort spent on training & acquiring them? I think so. But, what if all of the high/low sec players flood the forums saying "no, because null sec is a waste of time" (certainly true, if you never play in null). Should CCP follow their advice? It would be easier for CCP to do so, but that does not make it fair to those players who felt it worthwhile to invest in and park a toon in a supercap for several years.

When the learning skills were removed, the players who trained them lost an advantage over players who had not trained them. The players who trained the learning skills were reimbursed. Doing so did not negatively affect the players who had not trained them. It was the right thing for CCP to do, despite the fact that a few players, who were not affected, complained that it was unnecessary. The same case applies here.


Far point, if they choose to reimburse I will not go shoot a momument. It does not affect me. I'm just saying that they should not listen to people raging on the forums that CCP screwed them without lube by changing rules and taking away their 0,01 isk profit.

However - comparing apples and oranges does no good as argument. Titans and SC are a solid part of game and have much much much grater value than BPOs researched beyond certain sane level. Also CCP is not removing anything, they are not taken any item from You, not taken any ISK from You, They are not removing a skill nor mechanic that You could use. All of it is still there - only now instead of spending 2 years researching titan to perfect level You will now have to spend 7 years :) Or just research it to 10 before patch hit and score a jackpot.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-06-30 19:43:34 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
You still have to hire people to do the manufacturing, thats the reason why You have to pay even on a pos. Its not nano-manufacturing controled mentally by Your clone, its actuall manufacturing with people operation the machines.

Question: If we are hiring people to do the work for us, why do we have to train the skills for research and manufacturing? Shouldn't we instead train team management skills instead of individual research and development skills? And if other people are doing the work for us, why does the manufacturing waste/efficiency and research probability depend on our skills and not the skills of the people we hire?

Answer: logical explanations do not work. This is an ISK sink, plain and simple. That's perfectly okay, CCP just needs to come out and say that it's an ISK sink even though it may or may not make sense in some areas of the game (W-space, Sov Nullsec). I just disagree that the fee should apply to W-space and Sov Null.


Q: And if I have a set of jobs I want to run, why am I forced to hire a second group of people to do the work simultaneously, rather than ask the first group to run the new stuff when they finish what they're working on now.

A: This one I hope is changed, even more so than the first one, since there are reasons to queue (time vs cost tradeoffs) instead of run all jobs simultaneously.



Yes, its an isk sink from start to end.

While I am not fan of explaining mechanics by lore those skills issues You pointed are easly expalinable if You put your mind to it. For example - each manufacturing and reaserch skill is actually project managment skill for that field of science / industry. As with any project managment it is project manager duty to maintein budget and coordinate work of hired team, so wastage is part of Skill of PM.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#98 - 2014-06-30 21:28:53 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#99 - 2014-06-30 22:22:05 UTC
Themepark carebears crying about highsec industry. Priceless.

The Tears Must Flow
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#100 - 2014-07-01 00:42:47 UTC
Arronicus wrote:

So, the rorq changes are being pushed back again, to hyperion or oceanus now I guess? Was mentioned the rorq overhaul would be in crius by a bluepost once it got pushed back from kronos.


Xercodo wrote:
Cloora wrote:
So fitting modules without the required skills: How will that work with rigs that cannot be onlined / offlined?


They are essentially removing all rig fitting requirements and keeping the rig skills for reduction of drawback.



Despite even CCP Punkturis admitting this may not have been a well thought out idea, considering some of the rig skills don't reduce any drawback at all, and that the jury rigging skill now only affects manufacturing. Really doesn't make sense to be able to fit and use tech 2 modules on a brand new character.



the only thing they have said about the rorqual is they don't like where it is and they need to work on it. I have never seen a place where they said when...

I would love to see a link when someone gave a timeframe other than
"Later" or "After XXX"