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Proving That The Higgs Field Theory Is A Fallacy

First post
Author
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-06-28 22:07:50 UTC
I'd still like you to point me to those alternative theories.
Maybe you've overlooked me asking for that all this time.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#102 - 2014-06-28 22:08:37 UTC
Christina Project wrote:
I can't believe I'm reading this on the front page of GD ...


I literally BURST out in laughter! :D


We're not in GD? :o
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#103 - 2014-06-28 22:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Christina Project
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
I can't believe I'm reading this on the front page of GD ...


I literally BURST out in laughter! :D


We're not in GD? :o
What?

Why not? O:




Wow, you're right! :O




How the **** did I get here ??? D:

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2014-06-28 22:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Therefore: the point of this thread is now moot. How can it be used to describe a flaw in the Higgs field if everyone is cool with "Virtual" photon mass.

It's not virtual mass. It's relativistic mass. Photons simply don't have any rest mass.

The equation for relativistic energy of a particle is E^2 = (m_0 * c^2)^2 + p^2 * c^2 where m_0 is the rest energy, c is the speed of light, and p is momentum. Since photons have 0 rest mass the first term cancels out and taking the square root of both sides we get E = pc for photons. Since E = mc^2 for relativistic mass m, this becomes mc^2 = pc, or m = p / c. So the relativistic mass of a photon is the momentum divided by the speed of light, which is of course the speed of photons. This is the same result as you'd obtain from the classical momentum equation p = mv.

De Broglie's relation states that λ = h / p (λ being wavelength, h being Planck's constant, and p again being momentum). Or, p = h / λ. Substituting h / λ into p for the equation m = p / c, we get

m = h / λc.

So the relativistic mass of a photon is inversely proportional to its wavelength.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2014-06-28 23:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
I'd still like you to point me to those alternative theories.
Maybe you've overlooked me asking for that all this time.


All you have to do is google alternative theories to the standard model. I am not dodging it is just there is so much of it. You have to do a hell of allot of reading for it to make sense. But here is a quick reference to get you started on some basic ideas. Note I do not support all of them.


Alternative To The Standard Model Wiki
An Old Random Blog
Physics Beyond The Standard Model Wiki
Alternative theory of gravity explains large structure formation -- without dark matter
Spectral time lag in gamma ray bursts


Quote:
From recent observations of gamma-ray bursts (GRBs), it appears that spectral time lags between higher-energy gamma rays photons and lower-energy photons vary with energy difference and time (distance) traveled.


There may be a simple explanation for this but as far as I know, no one is 100% sure atm. Pretty cool stuff though...

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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2014-06-28 23:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Therefore: the point of this thread is now moot. How can it be used to describe a flaw in the Higgs field if everyone is cool with "Virtual" photon mass.

It's not virtual mass. It's relativistic mass. Photons simply don't have any rest mass.

The equation for relativistic energy of a particle is E^2 = (m_0 * c^2)^2 + p^2 * c^2 where m_0 is the rest energy, c is the speed of light, and p is momentum. Since photons have 0 rest mass the first term cancels out and taking the square root of both sides we get E = pc for photons. Since E = mc^2 for relativistic mass m, this becomes mc^2 = pc, or m = p / c. So the relativistic mass of a photon is the momentum divided by the speed of light, which is of course the speed of photons. This is the same result as you'd obtain from the classical momentum equation p = mv.

De Broglie's relation states that λ = h / p (λ being wavelength, h being Planck's constant, and p again being momentum). Or, p = h / λ. Substituting h / λ into p for the equation m = p / c, we get

m = h / λc.

So the relativistic mass of a photon is inversely proportional to its wavelength.



Ah ha... we have been through that already. It is not the only explanation and your explanation defies all known laws of physics not pertaining to photons. I am simply not satisfied. Especially since photons can instead be explained within the guidelines of existing physical laws using something as simple as acoustics as a frame of reference.


Relative mass is mass as it increases when a velocity approaches the speed of light. Mass that comes from nothing is "virtual" because 0 x infinity is still 0 Bro...

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2014-06-28 23:17:54 UTC
Christina Project wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
I can't believe I'm reading this on the front page of GD ...


I literally BURST out in laughter! :D


We're not in GD? :o
What?

Why not? O:




Wow, you're right! :O




How the **** did I get here ??? D:


You are in an Eternum Thread....

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2014-06-28 23:51:48 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
It is not the only explanation and your explanation defies all known laws of physics not pertaining to photons.

No, it's absolutely consistent with our observations of all matter, not just photons. Electrons behave this way. Protons behave this way. Atoms behave this way.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I am simply not satisfied. Especially since photons can instead be explained within the guidelines of existing physical laws using something as simple as acoustics as a frame of reference.

These are existing physical laws and every experiment done on photons is consistent with this behavior.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Relative mass is mass as it increases when a velocity approaches the speed of light. Mass that comes from nothing is "virtual" because 0 x infinity is still 0 Bro...

It doesn't "come from nothing". It's a manifestation of the mass-energy equivalence central to relativity. Relativity, which has been very rigorously experimentally verified for the past century.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2014-06-29 00:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited


I changed my mind... I don't want this to degrade into just another troll thread. I enjoyed this debate. So you keep posting equations and i'll keep reading up on the next generation of physics and super fluid space time.

Peaceout bro 0/

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2014-06-29 01:06:21 UTC
Have fun! Just remember that this next generation of physics is being built by people who didn't set out to disprove everything just because they didn't like what they thought it meant.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2014-06-29 01:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Have fun! Just remember that this next generation of physics is being built by people who didn't set out to disprove everything just because they didn't like what they thought it meant.


You should try reading more, kid Blink

You can start with the links I posted they explain some of the more obvious problems with the standard model and why physicists are working very hard to update old theories. If CERN does not find evidence of super-symmetry soon... you will see a major shift in how people talk about physics in the next 5 to 10 years one way or the other.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2014-06-29 01:32:25 UTC
Supersymmetry is not part of the standard model.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2014-06-29 01:48:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Supersymmetry is not part of the standard model.



I know... and you really need to read more...
Failure to find super symmetry would... oh hell just google it it's everywhere. Roll

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2014-06-29 02:01:33 UTC
Google doesn't tell me what you think it means.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2014-06-29 02:36:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Google doesn't tell me what you think it means.




Which part is unclear to you precisely?
This will be my last response to you. If you cannot figure it out then go read a book.


Quote:
....But if the LHC doesn't find any compelling proof for supersymmetry in the next few years, physicists will be left with some uncomfortable possibilities...

....In that case, what fills the theory gap? "If nothing else shows up – we've got a Higgs and nothing else – then it's not at all obvious what the next experiment ought to be," says Butterworth. In other words, if supersymmetry doesn't work out, theorists do not have a ready alternative to take its place.....

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2014-06-29 05:06:16 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Anyway now that we have established the whole two mirrors and Doppler thing...



I think we have just gotten to the point in the debate where it is clear that most of you are ok with an explanation that contradicts all other physical laws in order to describe light's properties. If that is so there then is no way that you could be made to understand the implications of changing inertia with frequency without change in velocity.

Therefore: the point of this thread is now moot. How can it be used to describe a flaw in the Higgs field if everyone is cool with "Virtual" photon mass.

Maybe one day i'll try and approach this from another angle.


When you get your doctorate in particle physics you can start to question a century of scientific research by the greatest minds in the history of humanity using the most advanced scientific equipment ever made. This is a tiny example of a seemingly huge problem of science itself being attacked across a huge spectrum from climate change, to genetics to vaccines. It is becoming a massive problem.

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2014-06-29 09:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
baltec1 wrote:

When you get your doctorate in particle physics you can start to question a century of scientific research by the greatest minds in the history of humanity using the most advanced scientific equipment ever made. This is a tiny example of a seemingly huge problem of science itself being attacked across a huge spectrum from climate change, to genetics to vaccines. It is becoming a massive problem.


I think you should actually click on the links in post 105 and educate yourself on what the greatest minds in the history of humanity using the most advanced scientific equipment ever made are currently working on, what they have found out and why new models of everything are being explored. The higgs field is not the only game in town and if the holes in the standard model cannot be filled... then guess what... science will need to take another giant leap.

Science being attacked is not the only massive problem. The closed doors of the minds of people like you whom feel content in mankind's overdeveloped sense of importance and universal knowledge is equally as damning.

As long as people like you, with doctorates or not, mindlessly hold true to theories that can only partially describe everything by looking passed glaring omissions than scientific progression will always be turning it's wheels in the mud. Read a book, read a link and read a scientific paper on a PDF file. All the information is there free to all... and yet, people like yourself proclaim knowledge while maintaining ignorance. And instead of engaging in debate like others have done here you sling accusations and trumpet self importance.

I say again, you have no idea what my credentials are do you? Big smile But in this debate it does not matter what they are, because doctorate or no doctorate, I most certainly know more than you because I have read the material. I continue to read all of the material that I can get my hands on. I do so from cover to cover. Yourself and James Amril-Kesh are no better than bible thumpers who highlight small paragraphs in the bible and believe they have it all figured out.


So where as you say I am part of the bigger problem where people attack science, I say you are part of a much larger problem where ignorance masquerades as comfortable understanding. More food for thought Blink


I guess this will degrade into a trolled thread after all...
Oh well it was fun while it lasted! Stay tuned for the next Eternum thread!

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2014-06-29 17:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

When you get your doctorate in particle physics you can start to question a century of scientific research by the greatest minds in the history of humanity using the most advanced scientific equipment ever made. This is a tiny example of a seemingly huge problem of science itself being attacked across a huge spectrum from climate change, to genetics to vaccines. It is becoming a massive problem.


I think you should actually click on the links in post 105 and educate yourself on what the greatest minds in the history of humanity using the most advanced scientific equipment ever made are currently working on, what they have found out and why new models of everything are being explored. The higgs field is not the only game in town and if the holes in the standard model cannot be filled... then guess what... science will need to take another giant leap.

Science being attacked is not the only massive problem. The closed doors of the minds of people like you whom feel content in mankind's overdeveloped sense of importance and universal knowledge is equally as damning.

As long as people like you, with doctorates or not, mindlessly hold true to theories that can only partially describe everything by looking passed glaring omissions than scientific progression will always be turning it's wheels in the mud. Read a book, read a link and read a scientific paper on a PDF file. All the information is there free to all... and yet, people like yourself proclaim knowledge while maintaining ignorance. And instead of engaging in debate like others have done here you sling accusations and trumpet self importance.

I say again, you have no idea what my credentials are do you? Big smile But in this debate it does not matter what they are, because doctorate or no doctorate, I most certainly know more than you because I have read the material. I continue to read all of the material that I can get my hands on. I do so from cover to cover. Yourself and James Amril-Kesh are no better than bible thumpers who highlight small paragraphs in the bible and believe they have it all figured out.


So where as you say I am part of the bigger problem where people attack science, I say you are part of a much larger problem where ignorance masquerades as comfortable understanding. More food for thought Blink


I guess this will degrade into a trolled thread after all...
Oh well it was fun while it lasted! Stay tuned for the next Eternum thread!


I recall you saying you have a high school science level education. You have near no idea about this subject, nobody in this thread does.

As for the subject at hand, of course its wrong, we still have a long way to go to understand everything. It is simply the best we can manage at this point in time. The higgs boson is real, whether you like it or not, it is now an observable fact. Science just did take a big leap, just not in the direction you like.
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2014-06-29 17:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
* Snip ISDI Eternum

Validating Bio deleted for privacy sake. Play time is over




baltec1 wrote:
As for the subject at hand, of course its wrong, we still have a long way to go to understand everything. It is simply the best we can manage at this point in time. The higgs boson is real, whether you like it or not, it is now an observable fact. Science just did take a big leap, just not in the direction you like.


Wait... you are actually saying of course it's wrong? You really do think the standard model is wrong but you are here bashing concepts that attempt to fix some of the holes in the model without debate or discussion? I could never understand people who did that. Nor can I grasp the motivation behind it...

As for the higgs particle... NO it is not defiantly related to a higgs field. What you see is the logical and predictable conclusion of that kind of mass being smashed together at that kind of velocity that many times. It is fundamental to quantum electrodynamics. If you understood the material you would understand that a higgs-like particle HAS to be there. But that particle does not have to be a part of a universal spanning field nor does it have to be a part of a field that gives all matter it's mass.

The two things are not directly connected... you are just being told that they are and believe everything that you hear/read so long as it is coming from a perceived authority figure.




Oh And...

-1 troll for the "your argument sucks so I will attack your credentials without delivering a valid counter argument of my own". If and when you choose to actually read up on this stuff, you will find that much of what I am covering can be found in alternative theories (made by physicists with doctorates from around the world) in the Wikipedia. You just have to do some searching to find it. You know... academic stuff Blink


Man... i just can't help myself.
I have to troll the trolls... maybe I need an intervention?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2014-06-29 18:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


Wait... you are actually saying of course it's wrong? You really do think the standard model is wrong but you are here bashing concepts that attempt to fix some of the holes in the model without debate or discussion? I could never understand people who did that. Nor can I grasp the motivation behind it...


Of course the standard model is wrong, its incomplete and breaks in parts. However, at the same time it is the best answer we have and at the moment there isn't anything else to replace it.

Also, Wikipedia and google are terrible for researching.