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Making " Infomorph Synchronizing" useful

Author
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#1 - 2014-06-23 15:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
As i see it the idea was introduced to make jump clones a little more useful in terms of a pve,training/ pvp trade off.

which i think is a great idea, However as the skill stands i haven't trained it and wont. this skill at level 5 give s you 19 hours between jumps. Bluntly this is useless its still a full day and in real life terms amounts to me still making a decision between training or pvp.... but why is this? whats the down side to me say on a Saturday being in my pve/ training clone what have you. Then deciding i want to pvp with some friends. and later that night switching back to my training clone..

basically my idea is this why not change the skill so that at level 5 its 12 hours... i cant find a down side, and i would actually train this skill.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-06-23 16:16:32 UTC
It is already plenty useful. You just aren't using jump clones enough.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2014-06-23 16:52:06 UTC
The general idea is, you have to plan for tomorrow.
So lets say you jump into a PVE clone today at 02:00, because that's what time you log in every day. You can PVE for 4 or 5 hours, or 2 or whatever you want, then log out. Then tomorrow, as soon as you log in, (your regular time frame), you can jump back to a PVP clone. With the skill at 3, you could log in a couple hours early and still clone jump asap.

Yeah, I know everyone already knows this... just sayin' that it's still a good skill as it is, and way better than things were before. Remember that jumping isn't just about skilling, it's also about locations. The original intent was to limit how fast you could change location. You just have to plan ahead.

Not being negative about your idea though. 12 hours would be great. Train all night, play all day. Or PVE in the mornings and PVP in the evenings.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2014-06-23 17:51:54 UTC
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
basically my idea is this why not change the skill so that at level 5 its 12 hours... i cant find a down side, and i would actually train this skill.

CCP doesn't want jump clones to make things too easy.

Example CCP mentioned: being able to jump clone more often gives sov defenders an even bigger advantage.

Please don't make me dig-up links to CCP's posts on this topic.

/thread
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#5 - 2014-06-23 17:55:16 UTC
i don't want to re state my opinions if your curious there here.. well untill a dev cleans my split post up

same topic
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2014-06-23 19:08:58 UTC
You should delete your account.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-06-23 19:39:17 UTC
Somebody finds it useful but you don't. Better delete the skill!
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-06-23 23:57:56 UTC
They're not going to let you turn into a mage that can teleport around the galaxy at will.

It's there to let you jump at the end of one play session, and jump again at the start of another. 5 hours is plenty of time.
O'nira
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-24 04:06:19 UTC
19 hours is already to much, this crap should be on a 48hour window.
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#10 - 2014-06-25 16:46:42 UTC
The skill system is fine as it is and is, in fact, one of this games´ selling points.

Sure, some skills could use some fine-tuning but this skill isn´t one of those.

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#11 - 2014-06-25 18:46:33 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
They're not going to let you turn into a mage that can teleport around the galaxy at will.

It's there to let you jump at the end of one play session, and jump again at the start of another. 5 hours is plenty of time.

You can already teleportt around on 2 min timer.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2014-06-25 19:19:52 UTC
CSM Ripard Teg wrote:
In the course of discussions with CCP, I was shown reasons why a 12 hour timer would be a bad idea. For example, during multiple reinforcement timers (something I obviously don't work with a lot), very short JC timers gives the defender tremendous advantages in terms of mobility and changing fleet compositions. So I have to admit that the reasons preventing shorter JC timers were good ones.

http://jestertrek.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ugly-babies.html
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#13 - 2014-06-26 09:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
Tau Cabalander wrote:
CSM Ripard Teg wrote:
In the course of discussions with CCP, I was shown reasons why a 12 hour timer would be a bad idea. For example, during multiple reinforcement timers (something I obviously don't work with a lot), very short JC timers gives the defender tremendous advantages in terms of mobility and changing fleet compositions. So I have to admit that the reasons preventing shorter JC timers were good ones.

http://jestertrek.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ugly-babies.html


Up to approx 50 mil SP the cost of the medical clone is pretty much irrelevant allowing the mobility and rapid change of fleet compositions described in there - yet it does not seem to be common tactics. Up to around 90 mil SP the cost is still ok for few pod-express jumps if you need to. Somewhere around 150 mil it gets to the area where most people will consider if they really need to jump but it is still cheaper than doing the 40+ jumps trip.

Then you would have to take into account that each account has 3 character slots. You can do very competent character if suitable focused within 50 mil SP envelope. For covering most of the fleet doctrines with acceptable competence around 25 mil sp is sufficient. Around 40..45 mil SP is good ballpark for well skilled capital alt (although for capitals the mobility is non-issue in general anyway). For example: Laser focused Scimi alt takes around 12..13 mil SP, with few million more SP you can make it use minmatar recons and do cov ops cynos as well for added utility - all that at the cost of power of 2 + 1 plex for added 30d for recons and the cost of char transfer.

Above ~100 mil SP all that SP does for you is making your clones cost more in essence. Sure, you can drag few percentage points here and there but for null sec fleets it does not matter anymore for all practical purposes.

Throw in there the suitcase carriers, titan bridges and jump bridge networks and the jump clone timer becomes irrelevant for the purposes of the power projection. All it affects is some fresh players or not-properly-organized who do not have enough alts and/or assets to play in the league they want to. And ofc some casuals who would like to jump into implant free clone for some "operation" and then back into their care-bear clone at the end of the evening for scraping out these few thousand extra SP over the night.

Properly organized entity can have these different fleet compositions prepared in their staging stations, they can conduct an operation in one end of the EVE universe, dock up somewhere with medical, change the clone location to the other staging station at the opposing end of the universe undock with their pods, gets smartbombed and be 100 lightyears away in less than 2 minutes undocking with the right doctrine ships after updating their medical clones. All it takes is a corporate office near the target. If nothing is prepared all it takes is one cyno alt to make it there, rent an office (if everyone is in one corp) and then you can send in suitable number of suitcase carriers and just pod-express there.

So claims about mobility in regards of jump-clone timers are utterly unjustified under the current meta in EVE in my opinion.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-06-28 23:46:16 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
They're not going to let you turn into a mage that can teleport around the galaxy at will.

It's there to let you jump at the end of one play session, and jump again at the start of another. 5 hours is plenty of time.


I agree with this. 5 hours is plenty and it prevents people from using the JC system as a portal to avoid combat or whatever. I think this is one of those things where you give them an inch they will want a mile. If you made it a 10 hour cooldown people would as for 5... make it 5 they'll ask for 1 hour.... 24 hours was fine and 19 hours is really nice.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-06-29 05:47:26 UTC
The problem is not with the jump clones .... but with learning attribute enhancements through implants.

I'm my own NPC alt.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-06-29 06:04:56 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
The problem is not with the jump clones .... but with learning attribute enhancements through implants.

There's no problem... We don't need to remove every complexity from the game because it's “unfair“.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-06-29 07:35:02 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
The problem is not with the jump clones .... but with learning attribute enhancements through implants.

There's no problem... We don't need to remove every complexity from the game because it's “unfair“.

Sure, but my point is not about complexity or fairness but restriction of PvP (aka fun play, IMO). The only reason ever broad up by people who want to reduce the cooldown between jumps, is the long term decision between Learning/PvE and PvP. Changing the jump clone mechanic is like increasing the symptomatic medication with severe side effects instead of curing the cause. But I don't want to hijack the thread, the implants are discussed in another thread.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#18 - 2014-06-30 07:54:21 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
They're not going to let you turn into a mage that can teleport around the galaxy at will.

It's there to let you jump at the end of one play session, and jump again at the start of another. 5 hours is plenty of time.


I agree with this. 5 hours is plenty and it prevents people from using the JC system as a portal to avoid combat or whatever. I think this is one of those things where you give them an inch they will want a mile. If you made it a 10 hour cooldown people would as for 5... make it 5 they'll ask for 1 hour.... 24 hours was fine and 19 hours is really nice.



People who do not want to fight will not regardless of jump clone timer.

Hi sec: There is really nothing you can do to catch a guy with half decent insta undock bookmark and interceptor / cloaky / shuttle making use of it. The single clone jump per 24h is enough to jumpclone into implant free body and then make you run around after him by taking pod express between opposite ends of universe.

Low sec: You can add jump drives into here. 30 sec invulnerability and 10 sec session change. There is absolutely nothing you can do to keep a guy with jump drive going out from station unless you know where his cyno is and kill it before he jumps. The same stuff as used in hi sec can also be used.

Null sec: You can prevent caps leaving by using bubbles. However, if a guy wants out and has a bookmark there is not much you can do about it. Nullified cloaky T3 or Interceptors are available.

And everywhere pod express is available for practically infinite mobility. It really is in a nutshell a "jump clone" on 2 min (or less) timer with side-effect of consuming any implants you might have in your head and (usually) slightly elevated cost (which is more or less negligible up to approx 50 mil SP). Same as jump clones you need to have some hardware prepared in the location you are jumping to as it moves only the egg.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-07-04 20:08:30 UTC
I never use my clones for moving places, but a lot of my ships demand specific implant sets. Damnation? slaves.. scimi.. special set for that, scanning ships.. yeah the sisters set. and while the new navy mindlinks have made it much easier still the whole wrong mindlink in problem (maxed leadership ftw)

which means I can easily miss a fleet if I am in the wrong clone.

that said.. 19 hours is more then enough. please dont lower it further. the skill mentioned is insanely useful and doesn't need further buffing. there needs to be a drawback to specialized clones as the bonus you get from that is so big. (thats what she said? oh wait.. i did say that.. so yes that is what she said).

a choice should have consequences, and if you can just change clones like you change panties then what is the point?
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#20 - 2014-07-08 20:12:10 UTC
I clone jump a lot. I have 10 jc's and I use pretty much all of them. I found this skill to be a godsend because at 24 hours, reality was you could only jump every other day if you are someone who generally plays at the same time each day. It would be super useful to me to be able to jump every 12 hours, but to be honest, from an overall gameplay point of view, CCP should not lower the timer any further. It would simply be too op. Eve should have more strategy and depth than just jumping around from place to place, training clone to pvp clone willy nilly. Any good game, whether a board game or Eve, is enhanced when the players have to make tough decisions; balance costs and benefits.

No good deed goes unpunished

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