Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hi CCP,

Thanks for Crucible. You get a gold star

I know you guys promised to bump up Assault Frigates as a point release, due to it missing Crucible's release.

My request, is simple, as part of those changes, I would like to see the Hawk and Harpy be able to use that top high slot on their fittings for their native weapon types.

It would be brilliant if the Hawk could fit all rockets instead of rockets and one hybrid, and likewise, Harpy could fit all hybrids instead of having a missile slot... on a rails ship.

Having to use both types of weapon platform on both ships is very frustrating. I see Assault frigates as having real potential for new EvE pilots to get into PvP quickly, but asking new pilots to train two completely different weapon platforms is painful.

Feedback welcome.

But as far as I recall, one of the golden rules of EVE is "never mix weapons". So why have both a 4 rocket launchers and a gun on a Hawk, if that gun does little less than nothing to improve the fitting? Then I'd rather just leave the gun-slot empty and have a proper tank on the ship instead.

Actually, having looked at that side of things more, this is very good point. Given that Caldari should be to shields what Amarr are to armour, they are lacking.

Here is a fairly simple Fleet setup Hawk fit, where it would need EHP to get some repair in time, and act as a pointer - given that Caldari sort of don't have gazillions of Mid slots free for such fancy things as disruptor on their battleships (Rokh's need both Cap Boosters and Propulsion Mods, plus loose a mid slot to the EM module, so they truly don't have space) this makes using Hawks an ideal ship in that fleet role.

I'd rather fly a Vengeance and at least have decent resists and pointing. With a damnation in fleet, this gets:

22,700 EHP, above 83% resists or above across the board reaching 93% against explosive, 41m signature with T2 Rage's, 746 m/s. It also can fit a Micro Cap Booster to eliminate cap drain from stopping the point. It can fit a MWD if preferred.

Compare that to a Hawk with a Vulture boost:

13,467 EHP, 76% and 78% resists against EM and EX, 56m signature (Not far off a destroyer) with T2 Rages. Cannot fit a Micro Cap Booster, 844 m/s speed. The speed and agility help once it is on orbit, but on a direct approach, it doesn't have the EHP needed to survive long enough to get repairs. It even needs a CPU bump in the low slots to fit this tank.

Now you could argue, that it's not meant to be used for pointing, the Hawk should be more about DPS, but it is the close range ship of the two for Caldari, Harpy is supposed to be for rails.

My suggestion is, give the Harpy the 5% resist bonus the Vengeance also gets, but for shield, just like it's big brother, the Eagle has. It is a T2 Hybrid boat after all, and reduce it's high slots from 5 to 4, and give the Harpy the extra mid slot, therefore letting it be the heavy pointer ship Caldari really need.

Personally, I would like to see more mixed fleets of ships of all sizes, where new pilots in Frigates can be encouraged to come along, and not instantly die to a Zealot. (Oh such happy memories of those in my Malediction!)


[Vengeance, Fleet Heavy Pointer Fit]

[Vengeance, EHP Vengeance]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Thermic Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Warp Scrambler II
1MN Afterburner II
Micro Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25

Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Foxfire Rage Rocket

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I



[Hawk, Fleet Hawk Pointer Fit]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
1MN Afterburner II

Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I

On a hawk. Instead of the extender rigs use T2 EM resist rig, drop the EM resist mod and use a cap booster + medium shield extender. To keep people from getting away, drop the blaster and add a meta4 small neut. You'll probably have to use a meta DCU to make things fit. A medium shield booster with those resists makes for a pretty decent tank. As long as you don't screw things up too much that vengeance you posted is toast.

Yeap, in my second post, I suggested that the Harpy gain a mid slot and 5% shield resists at the loss of a high slot, this would put it akin to the Vengeance for Caldari shields, who sorely need a heavy pointer as a race.

5-weapon Hawks/Harpies would be hilariously OP. Ever heard of a utility high?



Rockets are also fine.

You still don't seem to know what a utility high is. Need it explained for you?
And how exactly is a 25% DPS increase not large?

And yay, T3 frigates, a ship to neatly obsolete every other frig in much the same way the Dramiel did before they nerfed it. I am so looking forward to frigs with 25k EHP and 400 DPS (going by the current idiotic trend) that basically tell everyone who isn't rich to suck it.

And a utility high is exactly that - choice. A small amount of supplemental DPS or a cap warfare module. I see no issue here at all. Personally I fit an autocannon on my Hawk's utility high and it works very well
Are you saying that all ships that have a space highslot should be able to mount a bonused gun/launcher there instead?

The Hawk and Harpy are fine as they are. The fact is: they're perfectly capable ships without a massive damage boost.
So no, you shouldn't be able to fit a rocket launcher there, because it would overpower the ship.


I wasn't talking about the Hawk, I was on a sarcastic rant about tech 3 frigates and how they'll utterly **** the game over if implemented.


No, they cost a million isk + the 8 guns, making their price closer to a cruiser than anything else, as well as a bloated sig radius and limited speed. In other words: stupid comparison.

Keyword: gang boosts. Throw that in with other ships and you get a similar advantage. That and if you're moving at 2000m/s in a destroyer, you're MWDing - which makes the sig buff of the Claymore pretty much null.
Throw those same boosts onto an AF and you get a ship with a stupidly small sig and moving god knows how fast (no EFT here) with just an AB.
Destroyers got a DPS boost to justify their large size and lower mobility.
TLDR: if you're gonna factor in gang links, factor them in on both sides of the comparison.


How the hell are you fitting your Harpy to get a sucky tank? Caldari AFs are remarkably tough.
It's also worth mentioning the Harpy has been buffed recently via the hybrid changes, making it harder hitting, better tracking and easier to fit.

You've then named 2 ships that don't make good use of their utility high, and do indeed somewhat underperform. A perfectly fair point, but there are two issues with this:
1. There are numerous ships I can name that can and do make superb use of said utility high. (The Hurricane being one of the most prominent examples)
2. Both those ships have problems that are either unrelated to their DPS or would not be fixed by giving them extra weapons.
Hell, the Cerberus would become overpowered with a 6th HAM - that thing already spits out 500 DPS at 45km while mounting a buffer of around 40k.

Going back on topic slightly: nobody can deny AFs need a look at, but throwing a 5th weapon on the Harpy and Hawk is certainly not the way to do it.
If those ships were badly underperforming with a 4th bonus, then it'd be worth considering.

Oh you're talking oversized AB: in which case that's another invalid comparison, because those fits are pure, undiluted LOL. The only ship I can name that's actually good with that sort of fit is the Tengu. Even with a max skilled, T2'd out Loki on a Thrasher, with an oversized AB you turn like a battleship. Useless gimmick fit.

The big issue with that slot on the Cerberus really comes down to fitting, frankly. It's too low on both PG and CPU - so while it can indeed cram on either HMLs or HAMs(albeit with an ACR, there) it lacks the grid or CPU to put more than a small neut (at best) which in the absence of drones would serve as anti-frigate defence.
If the Cerb had the fitting capacity for a medium neut, that slot would be great. Right now though, it's just too difficult to put anything useful in there.

As for the Eagle: with blasters yeah, it's an unmitigated pile of fail. A 25m drone bay would help a lot with that, to be honest - but as a sniper it's actually not that gimpy any more. It falls slightly behind the Zealot in DPS but with superb tracking.
... The slight problem there being that both ships have been obsoleted as snipers by the tier 3 battlecruisers.

Yeah, the Eagle needs a ground-up rethink.