These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Infomorph Synchronizing.. skill tweak

Author
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#1 - 2014-06-23 15:16:13 UTC
Simply put, this skill as it stands is useless. 19 hours is basically still a full day. what would be wrong with changing the skill so that at level 5 it was 12 hours??? i cant find a reason...

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#2 - 2014-06-23 15:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
sorry this is the wrong spot


im re posting and linking
seeing as how im ******** and cant fiqure out how to delete the topic
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#3 - 2014-06-23 15:39:44 UTC
Consider this: You were never supposed to jump clones more than once a day, even with this skill.

Infomorph synchronizing doesn't really let you jump clones more than once a day, but instead gives you more flexibility in your schedule of when you do switch clones for the next day. If I go on a weekend Eve bender and during my last couple hours on Sunday jump clones to get something done with a specific set of implants, having a hard limit of 24 hours on jumping again would keep me from getting into a more useful clone Monday, when my schedule is back to normal. If I can't get back into my usual clone before my gaming time is up Monday, I have essentially just experienced a 2 day limit on jump clone availability instead of 1.

So no matter what the limit on jumping is intended to be 1 day, and the infomorph synchronizing skill is meant to accommodate people who have erratic playing schedules and variety in what they do in Eve.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#4 - 2014-06-23 15:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
sorry this is the wrong spot


im re posting and linking
seeing as how im ******** and cant fiqure out how to delete the topic

You can't delete topics, not sure even a GM can, they are to stay ... ,) They can eb renamed and locked though.

Still which forum do you think is right ? I mean, you are suggesting something, seems to be the right one.

Anyways, bak to topic.

I do agree, that 19 hours a re practically a full day and unsatisfying for all the purposes I can imagine for its intended use, but it falls short. I only trained it so the 24h jump won't get dragged out by delay from lets say 21:00 to 21:16 to 21:48 to 22:30 every other day.
(thx Bohneik Itohn, for explaining it in mroe detail)

My suggestion would be, keep Infomorph Synch. for clone jumpoijng as it is, meaning jumping into clones over distances, but add a new skill, lets call it Infomorph Equalizing, that reduces the timer to 'exchange' clones on the same location by 3 hours per level. This allows you to paricipate in short term events and be back in your usual clone by the end of the day, but still prohibits long jumps to negate traveling etc.
Though this can be misused in a mild way by 0.0 and low dvellers, I think it is rather minute compared to the gain high sec dwellers would get by jumping out of their skin and into situation they usually never would dur to the long delay.

Cheers
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#5 - 2014-06-23 15:50:05 UTC
i switched it to skills.. i figured that was more apt..

but to respond to the first guy .. why not be able to actually use clones dailly with no ill affects whats wrong with that .. im not asking about ccp intent.. i'm asking why it is considered wrong.


heres where i put it nowhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4739430#post4739430
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#6 - 2014-06-23 15:52:28 UTC
Purpose for this skill was to allow you to jump at the end of one playing session and then immediately jump the next day at the beginning of a new playing session, though it assumes a regular daily schedule with no more than 5 hours play time per session. Intention wasn't to allow you to jump more often than once a day.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#7 - 2014-06-23 15:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
I'll just leave these quotes here form the original Jump Clone thread posted prior to Odyssey 1.1 for you to consider:

CCP Rise wrote:
oh and also, we definitely will not be extending the timer any further. The implications related to travel become problematic fairly quickly and we don't want to worsen that situation at all.


Original Post

CCP Rise wrote:
It's not only an issue of travel. The 24 hour timer doesn't fit because it seems to say that you should be able to jump once a day, but in practice it's often more like every other day. Just because we want it to actually be once a day does not mean we want substantially more freedom in clone jumping overall.

I agree that most people will be using it to move clones for an activity, not for travel, but we don't want that to not come with cost. It is not the goal that everyone will be able to be in the ideal implant set for any activity at any time. We are happy with the cost (risk/time loss/travel) and decision making associated with clone jumping and don't want to eliminate that with this change.


Original Post

Not supported for the above reasons.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#8 - 2014-06-23 16:03:29 UTC
i understand what rise was saying and your opinion , but this change dosen't give you freedom for ideal implants at will. its not like i can change between multiple sets of pvp implants in a day.. i guess if you wanted you could still do this once of course but its not practical for that application. what it is practical for is training .. which is the basis of my argument.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#9 - 2014-06-23 16:10:27 UTC
Too late, it's an idea now, you're stuck with us.

Because being able to jump more often gives a lot more power to some playstyles than it does others.

Something else to consider: What's the difference between 19 hours and 12 hours for the majority of players, given that their schedule is a rather static daily or less login routine? If I have time to play Eve from 8 to 11 every night or every other night, going from 19 hours to 12 means nothing to me.

The only way changing infomorph syncing could benefit an even marginal amount of the player base is if the skill dropped jump times to 6 hours or less, and again that would give some players a fairly big advantage.

Just as an example of a large scale gameplay effect, how would this affect cyno alts during a big fight? Assuming a 6 hour timer the cyno alt jumps to a pre-set clone that is along the jump route, grabs the cyno ship, undocks to light the cyno, and then docks back up immediately after their task is finished. The big fights can last until downtime as we've regularly seen so now 6 hours later that cyno alt has the ability to jump to a second clone set up along a second jump route without requiring any significant input from the player during that 6 hour period to help set up another large scale fight in an entirely different area, to bring in reinforcements with minimal logistics effort, or to bypass enemy blockades entirely with the same amount of resources he had before jump times were reduced. This potentially changes a lot in the logistics of force projection if a large alliance chose to exploit it, and force projection already has a lot of exploitable problems.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#10 - 2014-06-23 16:25:58 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Too late, it's an idea now, you're stuck with us.

Because being able to jump more often gives a lot more power to some playstyles than it does others.

Something else to consider: What's the difference between 19 hours and 12 hours for the majority of players, given that their schedule is a rather static daily or less login routine? If I have time to play Eve from 8 to 11 every night or every other night, going from 19 hours to 12 means nothing to me.

The only way changing infomorph syncing could benefit an even marginal amount of the player base is if the skill dropped jump times to 6 hours or less, and again that would give some players a fairly big advantage.

Just as an example of a large scale gameplay effect, how would this affect cyno alts during a big fight? Assuming a 6 hour timer the cyno alt jumps to a pre-set clone that is along the jump route, grabs the cyno ship, undocks to light the cyno, and then docks back up immediately after their task is finished. The big fights can last until downtime as we've regularly seen so now 6 hours later that cyno alt has the ability to jump to a second clone set up along a second jump route without requiring any significant input from the player during that 6 hour period to help set up another large scale fight in an entirely different area, to bring in reinforcements with minimal logistics effort, or to bypass enemy blockades entirely with the same amount of resources he had before jump times were reduced. This potentially changes a lot in the logistics of force projection if a large alliance chose to exploit it, and force projection already has a lot of exploitable problems.



yes i agree with the concept but thats assuming a six hour jump time which is not what im saying, and i dont agree with that

however twelve hours is great for a large basis of the game; who dosen't have 2 minuets to log-in and switch clones or rather who wouldn't find that time thats what i'm saying . whats wrong with not having to chose between two styles of gameplay for a given day. 12 hours isnt going to change null sec (or any area really)in any way shape or form.

to elaborate on my position i am away most weeks and cant play the game.. i only have time on the weekends, why hold me back from making the most of my time, when this wont affect the game adversely .. in your own words your barely see this as being useful, but to gamers like my self with sparse time to play it dose make a diffrence. this is me gaining a week day for some reason and being able to play for a night with out losing a week of training .. why stop that?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#11 - 2014-06-23 16:53:44 UTC
I still don't see my extra skill suggestion negated by fozzies post, which I remember now from before Oddyssey as you posted it.

I think exchaning clones furthers activity, while jumping hinders it, so devide the two.

I have been asked many times to accompany friends to WH or low sec space and always declined due to the 1 day jump delay, no other reason had any influence. For me, its a 100% block.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#12 - 2014-06-23 17:05:55 UTC
Because you don't have to lose a week of training or an excursion to WH space just because of implants? It's been discussed to death, incorrect implants are not a valid argument.

The amount of training time you'd lose over having a cheap set of +3 implants, or even some of the cheap +3 pirate implants with combat bonuses for your PvP activities, instead of having your +4's or +5's plugged in for a week, is very negligible. If you loaded up a week long skill and had to train that week long skill with +3's instead of +4's, it's typically a whole 4 hours increase in training time for that skill.

Part of the trade-off of learning implants is the fact that they do not provide you any immediate benefit in combat should you engage while having them plugged in, and that you are risking the isk without any appreciable gain during that time. There should not be any changes made to lessen, remove or circumvent that trade-off, because factoring it in is an important part of making the choices that players make in Eve regarding their implants just as significant as the advantages they give.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#13 - 2014-06-23 17:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
Before my reply is read id like you to know i dont mean any ill will, nor am i trying to pick a fight ;its just that im not you and apparently we dont see eye to eye on this topic.




Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Because you don't have to lose a week of training or an excursion to WH space just because of implants? It's been discussed to death, incorrect implants are not a valid argument.


just because you and others have spoken about it dose not mean my opinion is some how less meaningful. we all have them and are obviously entitled to them. you have no right to dismiss me.

Bohneik Itohn wrote:
The amount of training time you'd lose over having a cheap set of +3 implants, or even some of the cheap +3 pirate implants with combat bonuses for your PvP activities, instead of having your +4's or +5's plugged in for a week, is very negligible. If you loaded up a week long skill and had to train that week long skill with +3's instead of +4's, it's typically a whole 4 hours increase in training time for that skill.


yes in the short term but ive been playing for over two years now ... thats not negligible.. its significant.

Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Part of the trade-off of learning implants is the fact that they do not provide you any immediate benefit in combat should you engage while having them plugged in, and that you are risking the isk without any appreciable gain during that time. There should not be any changes made to lessen, remove or circumvent that trade-off, because factoring it in is an important part of making the choices that players make in Eve regarding their implants just as significant as the advantages they give.


this is still true even if the time between jumps is lessened. how many people play for over 12 hours a day regularly.. i work full time and have a girlfriend and freinds ..ie a life outside of eve. i also know many other players that do as well. they way i see this debate right now is that you are saying if i want to continue to play this game i have to cater to the oober active and plan my life accordingly. i have to plan out my eve schedule so that i can also play against many other users that use implants and boosts so that i can compete on par. that is what your telling me that is your side of the argument as i understand it from my life perspective.
basicallly if i get time on saturday night to play, im ok if i find a minuet on sunday to change clones .. however if i play sunday night im screwed because i wont be able to switch untill monday and im already 3 states away with no personal computer for a week ..and this happens frequently for me.

Little back story im a wireless technician ( basicly i work on cell towers/sites) i travel the us east coast every week( well the north east mostly) im not home at all during the week 90 % of the time but there are rare occasions where i am home for a couple of nights and ill work localy.. but i dont have a 8 hour 9-5 im up at 4:30 to be at work by 6 am(1 hour commute) and i usually dont get home untill 8 or later. my life dosent allow for 19 hour
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#14 - 2014-06-23 18:01:38 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Because you don't have to lose a week of training or an excursion to WH space just because of implants? It's been discussed to death, incorrect implants are not a valid argument.

The amount of training time you'd lose over having a cheap set of +3 implants, or even some of the cheap +3 pirate implants with combat bonuses for your PvP activities, instead of having your +4's or +5's plugged in for a week, is very negligible. If you loaded up a week long skill and had to train that week long skill with +3's instead of +4's, it's typically a whole 4 hours increase in training time for that skill.

Part of the trade-off of learning implants is the fact that they do not provide you any immediate benefit in combat should you engage while having them plugged in, and that you are risking the isk without any appreciable gain during that time. There should not be any changes made to lessen, remove or circumvent that trade-off, because factoring it in is an important part of making the choices that players make in Eve regarding their implants just as significant as the advantages they give.


I am sure it has been discussed extensively, but has any satisfying consesus been reached would be my first question regarding that.

I would rather promote the eradication of training implants (or at least above +3) for the same reason you are attacking clone exchange (not jumping, I differentiate the two for the moment).

And I know, that having +5s is insignificantly better then +4s and I won't make the same mistake again, but its an issue of implants being worth more (usually multiple times) or equal to the ship you are willing to lose even without any benfit to the excursion. And I am talking short daytime excusrions, not jumping in or out of an Incursion or a lasting expedition.

If we didn't have +4 or +5 (as a sole training benefactor) we wouldn't have the issue with clone exchange. If we could exchange clones twice withing 9 hours, we wouldn't have an issue with implants being an issue. If you see the same connection I do, we can maybe eliminate one factor and fix two aspects.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#15 - 2014-06-23 18:06:22 UTC
I'm not dismissing you, I'm suggesting you use the search function to find out where the discussion has gone during these years, and see if you have anything unique to add to the discussion beyond what has already been suggested by the rest of the community. None of us benefit by everyone repeating each other every couple weeks.

The difference seems huge in the amount of days when you look at it without comparison. When you look at it as a percentage, or in comparison, it's about 3% or the same number of Public Holiday dates in the U.S..

Pretty insignificant, now matter low long the scale is stretched over.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#16 - 2014-06-23 18:17:23 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:


The difference seems huge in the amount of days when you look at it without comparison. When you look at it as a percentage, or in comparison, it's about 3% or the same number of Public Holiday dates in the U.S..

Pretty insignificant, now matter low long the scale is stretched over.


what point or person was this aimed at? .. just curious because im not seeing the correlation to my point.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#17 - 2014-06-23 18:28:51 UTC
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:


The difference seems huge in the amount of days when you look at it without comparison. When you look at it as a percentage, or in comparison, it's about 3% or the same number of Public Holiday dates in the U.S..

Pretty insignificant, now matter low long the scale is stretched over.


what point or person was this aimed at? .. just curious because im not seeing the correlation to my point.


To everyone, but mostly to you. I just realized before I quoted you that your post may fall under the pyramid quoting rule due to the way you formatted it, and chose not to worry about getting my post edited.

The correlation is that 3% makes no difference in the long run. 3% is also assuming that you just said "Screw this noise, I'm not jumping into a learning clone again for the next 2 years." and didn't have some marginal degree of success with staying in your learning clone during your work periods.

So including periods when you do miss the opportunity to jump into the right clone, over a stretch of two years, we may be talking 1-1.5% of your training efficiency is lost? Sweet Jeebus man, just relax a little.

My employer doesn't hold me to a standard of greater than 99% efficiency in my job. I'm pretty sure your employer doesn't hold you to that standard either. I don't hold that kind of standard for myself in my personal activities, so why the hell would you do that in a video game? That's just unnecessary stress.

Vidjya games man.... They're for the fun.... Cool

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#18 - 2014-06-23 19:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
ok your right this has digressed a bit.. even though training was my main focus.. which by the way its more like 10% not 3(2610 vs 2250, on attribute +4 vs not) i still dont see where three is coming from nor do i care to get into it. it dosen't matter.. besides random cyno alts thats really would'nt matter in a null sov battle anyway ( its not like you cant have more than one cyo alt or the other 1000 guys in your coalition wouldnt have one) how is this negatively effecting game play ? ( i dont want to hear about ccp intent..thats not the point) again 12 hours is my thought not 6 not 11 not 13....?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-06-23 20:19:11 UTC
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Simply put, this skill as it stands is useless. 19 hours is basically still a full day. what would be wrong with changing the skill so that at level 5 it was 12 hours??? i cant find a reason...




Good lord, there's just no pleasing some people. No. It's fine. Frankly, it was fine when it was a full day.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#20 - 2014-06-23 22:43:02 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Simply put, this skill as it stands is useless. 19 hours is basically still a full day. what would be wrong with changing the skill so that at level 5 it was 12 hours??? i cant find a reason...




Good lord, there's just no pleasing some people. No. It's fine. Frankly, it was fine when it was a full day.


so glad this was constructive in any sense
12Next page