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The asymmetrical ship, and why its important to have unique designs.

First post
Author
stoicfaux
#21 - 2014-06-23 03:22:17 UTC
Symmetric hull aren't necessary to warp travel: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Interstellar_travelling#Faster-Than-Light-Travel:_How.3F

tl;dr - ships travel in a bubble, so hull shape doesn't matter.


However, I cant' find the article stating how for sub-light speeds, ships warp space to move, i.e. the thrusters aren't thrusting, so again, non need for hull symmetry.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-06-23 03:26:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I can't think of anything we sent people up in that wasn't symmetric.
All probes, all shuttles, all capsules.

The fact that you mention the space shuttle demonstrates the main problem: you only think of symmetry one-dimensionally — left to right. There's just one problem: left and right does not exist matter in space. Left-right symmetry only exists if there is a clear up-down and forwards-backwards for it to exist perpendicular to. The shuttle has such symmetry because it's meant to land with the wheels pointed downwards in the manner of a over-engineered brick airplane, with wings creating lift upwards and landing gear pointing downwards. It has left-right symmetry to keep its forwards-backwards axis pointed in the same direction and not go into a flat spin. Hell, lifting wings as a concept work precisely because they're not symmetrical in relation to the direction of travel.

In space, forwards and backwards (in terms of direction of travel) exists as a single axis, but that's about it. Symmetry (if you need it at all) has to exist around this axis, but there is no left/right/up/down. You can have almost any kind of symmetry you want — three-way, four-way, two-way, n-way — and you're not restricted to just two pre-determined axes.

So using airplanes as a point of comparison, a regular 747 is not symmetric along this single relevant axis. This 747 would be, as would this one. With that an mind, go back and look at pictures of everything we've sent into space. Almost nothing is (visually) symmetrical in any way that matters (but all of it is of course symmetrical in terms of mass distribution and thrust, but that's something quite separate).

This is called being a pedant.

I was clearly referring to symmetry in a single axis because that's the only type of symmetry that anybody in this context could have been referring to. I'm not only thinking of it one-dimensionally, I'm only talking about a single dimension.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-06-23 03:38:38 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Every ship is asymmetrical.

amarr ships, not quite Straight


The Aeon will, once they finish the other half.

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Jiris Yusef
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-06-23 03:41:56 UTC
Aerodynamics don't matter in space.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-06-23 03:58:09 UTC
The shuttle by the way is symmetrical in the roll axis but not in the yaw or pitch axis.

Or to put it another way it is symmetrical left/right but not up/down or front/back.



On an unrelated note, why do mirrors reverse left right but not up down ?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-06-23 04:31:16 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The shuttle by the way is symmetrical in the roll axis but not in the yaw or pitch axis.

Or to put it another way it is symmetrical left/right but not up/down or front/back.



On an unrelated note, why do mirrors reverse left right but not up down ?


Define up/down/left/right/front/back in space, where there is no clear reference (called a horizon) to judge your situation by.

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Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2014-06-23 04:35:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This is called being a pedant.
No, it is called explaining why I said something you disputed.
I was not referring to any symmetry at all, so your assumption that it was only symmetry along a single dimension was… well… just an assumption. In the context of a real-life space, that particular symmetry is, for the reasons described, not one that anybody should assume.

Harrison Tato wrote:
Thank god for the forums because it gives you an outlet for arguing with everyone about everything. It has probably saved you from the wood chipper in real life!

Oh look. Implied threats of violence over a clarification of what symmetry means. Classy.
Sod off.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-06-23 04:42:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This is called being a pedant.
No, it is called explaining why I said something you disputed.

My dispute is natural then, considering you ignored the context of this discussion.

Tippia wrote:
I was not referring to any symmetry at all, so your assumption that it was only symmetry along a single dimension was… well… just an assumption.

One reasonably predicated on the context of this discussion.

Tippia wrote:
In the context of a real-life space, that particular symmetry is, for the reasons described, not one that anybody should assume.

Which is not particularly relevant to the context of this discussion.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-06-23 04:50:46 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
My dispute is natural then, considering you ignored the context of this discussion.
Not really, no. Go back and look at my first post and see the context it was made in. Just because you missed the context does not mean I ignored it.

Quote:
One reasonably predicated on the context of this discussion.
Same here. Look at the actual context of my comment, not the one you're imagining and hoping for.

Quote:
Which is not particularly relevant to the context of this discussion.
You mean a discussion of how symmetry in and out of space actually works in real-life? No, it's fairly relevant there. It's also pretty relevant to any kind of space-game as it happens.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-06-23 05:51:12 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Every ship is asymmetrical.

amarr ships, not quite Straight


The Aeon will, once they finish the other half.

hence the "not quite"

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

ISD Supogo
ISD BH
ISD Alliance
#31 - 2014-06-23 05:58:32 UTC
Removed a personal attack.

Quote:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD BH Supogo

Bughunter

Equipment Certification and Anomaly Investigations Division (ECAID)

Interstellar Services Department

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-06-23 06:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
stoicfaux wrote:



However, I cant' find the article stating how for sub-light speeds, ships warp space to move, i.e. the thrusters aren't thrusting, so again, non need for hull symmetry.



Interesting the NASA sponsored concept work for a possible FTL ship looks a lot like the Astero ....


NASA FTL concept


Best view of rings.
Raviel Oxidans
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-06-23 06:42:29 UTC
Lets play space engineers?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-06-23 07:12:47 UTC
Raviel Oxidans wrote:
Lets play space engineers?


lol lets cross EVE with SPORE
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#35 - 2014-06-23 07:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Asymmetry in spacecraft design is hardly unique to EvE

And most designs in EvE are not unique, either. They are influenced by many sources, and at least one is completely lifted from something else (admittedly, the something else is not a spaceship)

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2014-06-23 08:19:19 UTC
Raviel Oxidans wrote:
Lets play space engineers?

Kerbal Space Program ftmfw. Pirate
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#37 - 2014-06-23 08:33:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Raviel Oxidans wrote:
Lets play space engineers?

Kerbal Space Program ftmfw. Pirate


Kerbal Space Programme FML more like Lol

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-06-23 08:51:43 UTC
The old Moa is dead. Get over it.
Analeesa
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-06-23 11:24:30 UTC
I prefer symmetrical ships. They just look nicer in my opinion. What's wrong with a mix of both?
Strawberry Shortcake69
Hyperion Corporation
#40 - 2014-06-23 11:26:16 UTC
Well, you can always fly the Imicus hulls. Nothing quite says I've had a stroke like they do.
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