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The Argument is Over
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Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#1 - 2011-12-06 06:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue that there is no issue with Matar and/or projectiles after this, i just dont know what to say.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

EDIT: Just so my personal (and frankly unimportant) opinion is stated here: I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance.

Anyway, Here are the cold, hard facts:


CCP Diagoras wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:

Maybe we can get some current numbers from CCP? Weapons and ships used this year?

(Final blow is a bit tricky, as high RoF skews that a lot :-))


Final blows, weapon type, 2011 only, PVP only:

Group:
Projectile Weapon 1,455,484
Energy Weapon 392,605
Hybrid Weapon 250,858
Combat Drone 221,329
Heavy Missile 203,896

Type:
425mm AutoCannon II 388,602
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 207,378
200mm AutoCannon II 163,613
150mm Light AutoCannon II 144,349
720mm Howitzer Artillery II 136,879

By ship type scoring the final blow:
Hurricane 378,864
Drake 272,204
Sabre 124,472
Dramiel 118,128
Vagabond 117,136
Cynabal 113,905
Abaddon 80,659
Tengu 79,493
Harbinger 71,286
Rifter 67,721
Kass Boor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-12-06 07:06:50 UTC
272k drakes and 80k tengus only making 200k final blows with missiles? What am I missing here?
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#3 - 2011-12-06 07:09:57 UTC
1. Change armour tanking penalties and fitting reqs.

2. Continue to fix hybrids.

3. Minmatar can not have the fastest ships with its current system. So either nerf the weapon system or slow down the ships.

4. Possibly look at fitting requirements for Minmatar (maybe not be needed).
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#4 - 2011-12-06 07:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Kass Boor wrote:
272k drakes and 80k tengus only making 200k final blows with missiles? What am I missing here?


I would presume because HMLs have the slowest volly speed. They just hit fewer times to do their damage, so have less random chances to get the KB.

EDIT: may have some drone kills there? Not sure.
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#5 - 2011-12-06 07:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: McRoll
Learn to interprete statistics properly. AC's have the fastest rate of fire, on the Hurri even bonused. Now with which weapon is it more likely to land a final blow, a slow firing or a fast firing one?

Regarding that, BC's are the most flown ships in PvP probably, so it is not surprising that the hurri lies before the Drake in final blows, it just fires faster. Dramiel has been nerfed so its use will decline over time. Vagabond and Cynabal were always preferred for small and solo warfare because of their speed, I am sure they were always at the top.

Other than that, nothing surprising shown.
Goose99
#6 - 2011-12-06 07:14:25 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Kass Boor wrote:
272k drakes and 80k tengus only making 200k final blows with missiles? What am I missing here?


I would presume because HMLs have the slowest volly speed. They just hit fewer times to do their damage, so have less random chances to get the KB.


Drake drones get that final blow, since their missiles never reach before target is popped already. When you have enough drakes, you'd be surprised how often that happens.Lol
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#7 - 2011-12-06 07:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
McRoll wrote:
Learn to interprete statistics properly. AC's have the fastest rate of fire, on the Hurri even bonused. Now with which weapon is it more likely to land a final blow, a slow firing or a fast firing one?

Regarding that, BC's are the most flown ships in PvP probably, so it is not surprising that the hurri lies before the Drake in final blows, it just fires faster. Dramiel has been nerfed so its use will decline over time. Vagabond and Cynabal were always preferred for small and solo warfare because of their speed, I am sure they were always at the top.

Other than that, nothing surprising shown.


You also have to take the number of ships in use actually firing the weapon. ACs dont just get more kills because they fire faster, they also have more ships firing these weapons that fire faster. Projectiles are so high up because EVERYONE USES THEM. Its a simple fact like that that proves they are imbalanced.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#8 - 2011-12-06 07:51:58 UTC
There are a lot of specific issues that have caused imbalances. Take on-grid probing. It destroyed sniping at ranges over 150km. I remember being a tempest pilot in BS fleets in 2007 and 2008. I hated that 200km was deep falloff for myself in those fights. But guess what? Beams and rails loved those ranges.

Fix these broken features and the game will improve. And stop trying to explain away the statistics. Blasters have a high rate of fire. So do rails. They our outnumbered in final blows by projectiles 6-1???
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-12-06 07:54:32 UTC
McRoll wrote:
Learn to interprete statistics properly. AC's have the fastest rate of fire, on the Hurri even bonused. Now with which weapon is it more likely to land a final blow, a slow firing or a fast firing one?


This is incorrect. In a series of tests against targets with random HP numbers, the higher dps weapon will always score more final blows. This is basic probability.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-12-06 08:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
The troll is over.

Yes, its over. If you continue to troll after this point, get out a marker and write the word 'trollingtrolleyMcTrolleypants' across your forehead.

Now, how do we use the forums, without having to hear trolls with logic and intellect straight out of the Stone Age?

Here are the cold, hard facts:

Forum user with a username designed for posting?
Emily Poast, check.

Starting threads with posts that focus primarily on assaulting the audience instead of discussion/information?
*looks up*, check.

Posing questions and then never attempting to answer them or even touch on them despite them being the only actual content in the OP?
*looks up*, check.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#11 - 2011-12-06 08:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue after this point, get out a marker and write the word 'irrational' across your forehead.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

Here are the cold, hard facts:
...


I don't dispute these facts, but they were before the Hybrid boost. Do you really believe we should be nerfing Minmatar into the stone age on the heels of a buff we haven't fully evaluated? From my perspective (blog post is still incoming), the playing field is much more even than people are giving it credit for.

-Liang

Ed: Just to be clear - if a Minnie nerf is still required, its required. I don't care and rarely if ever fly Minmatar ships.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2011-12-06 08:13:40 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
McRoll wrote:
Learn to interprete statistics properly. AC's have the fastest rate of fire, on the Hurri even bonused. Now with which weapon is it more likely to land a final blow, a slow firing or a fast firing one?


This is incorrect. In a series of tests against targets with random HP numbers, the higher dps weapon will always score more final blows. This is basic probability.


The basic idea behind this is true, but its also false. Ships don't have random amounts of HP and people don't start firing at the same time if for no other reason than lock speed and being on the field first. It shouldn't be surprising for anyone to find out that Artillery and ACs score **** tons of KBs against frigs, for example.

I didn't see anything about BC vs BC killing blows. That seems like it'd be an interesting statistic.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#13 - 2011-12-06 08:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Liang Nuren wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue after this point, get out a marker and write the word 'irrational' across your forehead.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

Here are the cold, hard facts:
...


I don't dispute these facts, but they were before the Hybrid boost. Do you really believe we should be nerfing Minmatar into the stone age on the heels of a buff we haven't fully evaluated? From my perspective (blog post is still incoming), the playing field is much more even than people are giving it credit for.

-Liang


No, as I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance. I thought I said position 2 in the OP...
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-12-06 08:22:38 UTC
[quote=Rysis Vyvorant]
3. Minmatar can not have the fastest ships with its current system. So either nerf the weapon system or slow down the ships.
[quote]

Either of these would nerf minmatar to be unplayable. Lack of mobility of the ships with the weakest tank in the game = dead. Lack of range to to keep out of brawl range on ships with the weakest tank = dead. This would nerf Minmatar back to 3+ years ago when they were the laughing stock of eve.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2011-12-06 08:27:53 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Yes, its over. If you continue to argue after this point, get out a marker and write the word 'irrational' across your forehead.

Now, how do we buff the other races up to par, without having to nerf Matar into the Stone Age?

Here are the cold, hard facts:
...


I don't dispute these facts, but they were before the Hybrid boost. Do you really believe we should be nerfing Minmatar into the stone age on the heels of a buff we haven't fully evaluated? From my perspective (blog post is still incoming), the playing field is much more even than people are giving it credit for.

-Liang


No, as I have said many times: 1) we should play out the hybrid buff first, and 2) I DONT think Matar should be nerfed if it can be helped. I prefer buffs to balance. I thought I said position 2 in the OP...


My bad man, I totally misread that as "how do we buff the other races or nerf...".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-06 08:31:52 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:


Projectiles are so high up because EVERYONE USES THEM. Its a simple fact like that that proves they are imbalanced.



You keep trying to convince people that because something is flown the most means that it is imballanced. This just isn't the case. It means that it is the most popular.

If you can find me some statistics that show the Cane is the least killed (and others on that list) then that would potentially lead to them being overpowered and not just overflown. However, I'm willing to bet that Canes are most flown and most lost. This just shows that they are popular and easy to fly, not overpowered.

Remember, "everyone uses them" =/= overpowered. However, everyone uses them and hardly anyone dies in them would mean that they are overpowered.

Posting that anyone who disagrees with you is blah blah blah, etc... is just another spin tactic to brow beat others into supporting you regardless of facts.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-12-06 08:32:38 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
[Either of these would nerf minmatar to be unplayable. Lack of mobility of the ships with the weakest tank in the game = dead. Lack of range to to keep out of brawl range on ships with the weakest tank = dead. This would nerf Minmatar back to 3+ years ago when they were the laughing stock of eve.


Minmatar ships need to have a weakness that can be exploited. As long as they are the fastest ships that can comfortably fight from out of web and scram range while having excellent anti-tackler defenses, they will always be more popular and dominant. They should commit to a fight just like everyone else. Basically, nerf kiting ships.

What would you suggest?
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#18 - 2011-12-06 08:37:27 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
The troll is over.

Yes, its over. If you continue to troll after this point, get out a marker and write the word 'trollingtrolleyMcTrolleypants' across your forehead.

Now, how do we use the forums, without having to hear trolls with logic and intellect straight out of the Stone Age?

Here are the cold, hard facts:

Forum user with a username designed for posting?
Emily Poast, check.

Starting threads with posts that focus primarily on assaulting the audience instead of discussion/information?
*looks up*, check.

Posing questions and then never attempting to answer them or even touch on them despite them being the only actual content in the OP?
*looks up*, check.


Generally, fair. But this was not intended as a troll. It was directed at the most vehement of the Matar defenders in the 30+ page thread. It wasnt intended as a personal assault. It is a presentation of evidence. As to solutions, I have offered many, over multiple threads, most of which I would not ultimatly support. Im just tring to get folks off of the 'Matar are Balanced' fallacy, so we can move onto more productive discussion.

And of course its an alt corp used to post - but we do actually undock. Anyway, my main was in a corp that had a 'no posting with your main' policy, hence I was born. ;)
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#19 - 2011-12-06 08:42:34 UTC
Hybrids and lasers both need the same treatment to ammo that projectiles had. There are eight bands to hybrid ammo. That's just confusing. And it would be nice if Amarr had more choices then scorch or MF.
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#20 - 2011-12-06 08:43:05 UTC
It comes mainly to fighting environment, in today's PvP of large fleets ad blobs, Minmatar are just good because of their ablity to escape (and alpha with arties which is handy in fleets). If it would be mainly small gangs, Gallente would be all over the place because this is where they shine, grab a Rapier in adition to some blasterships and go **** faces- it just doesnt work because its blob after blob today.

Not the fault of the weapon systems and ships, it's what the players make of the game. From my time of lowsec piracy, I remember the CEO always take out the Vindicator when something needed to die at the gate.
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