Ships & Modules

Hello there,

So I'm still training my T2 artilleries so I can get into Incursions. In the meanwhile, I've been researching a bit about high end PVE, and I naturally stumbled upon Marauders.

I know some groups use them, and other at least accept them into their fleets. I'd like to hear, from those people, how do they fare in Incursions, which fits are used, and if there are any fleet doctrines for Incursions centered around them. I really like the concept of these ships and eventually training into them could open interesting options for high end PVE (including higher class wormholes, although I'll make a different topic for those), as well as a stepstone for Dreadnoughts. Since I also run missions for when I've got little time to play and I plan to live on highclass wormholes, seems Marauders would be a good choice to train for.

At first, seems like the bastion mode has the issue of isolating the ship from logistics (excepting cap), but it might not need them due to übertank and rats not being able to scramble MJD's. They also get nice damage application from the mode, which helps them at all ranges. This information was taken from this official post at the original Marauder Rebalance topic:

With this post, seems like Marauders would benefit from increased damage application in contrast to Pirate ships' raw damage, so they seem like an interesting variant of a tactic.

About the ships themselves, I guess all of them are being used in Incursions depending on the fleet's doctrine of armor or shield. Seems to me that the Vargur would be used due to shield+capless guns both with autocannons and artilleries, while the Golem is tankier but missile user (although those damage application bonuses surely help), which also means capless, probably with cruise missiles. The Paladin seems to be another brick of a ship that benefits of no ammo and being able to be helped at its capacitor (logi) if neuted, and the Kronos can fit long-ranged blasters (!) or a good railgun DPS.

But since I haven't found any Incursion fits for Marauders, I politely ask you for them. Since they mostly rely on themselves, I guess they would be as shiny as possible... Perhaps as a next ship from a Pirate one if you want to try them out?

Thanks in advance!

Marauders are less desirable for incursions than pirate BSes due to their lower DPS. They can't self-tank HQs, so their tank is wasted there, and in VGs you're better off with 9 pirate BSes and 2 logi than 11 marauders.

The Golem is the only one that sees any use since it's the top of the line for missiles and its TPs help everyone, but you'll pretty much never see more than one in a fleet and a golem will get passed over for a vindi pretty much every time.

The fame of the Paladin came from IIC(invite only advanced armor channel), demonstrating what is possible with the hull in a one ship type fleet concept. Members of that channel did disagree on the forums here with the changes, but where mostly ignored by being a minority. In the end, the fleet concept was dropped in IIC with the bastion changes because the hull wasn't effective enough any more, in the NCOs in particular.

The Incrusion Guild uses pure active tank Marauder fleets(I think 12 or so on grid at once), TDF uses them(no active tank) and I use them in OIC(again no active tank). However I mostly fly my Paladins nowadays for safety reasons on grid(because of the extra RR and spare cap to utilize it more freely than on the NM) as pure DPS they are not as capable as the NM, by the lack of damage application against smaller targets and stopping power against Cruisers that try to get close with the mwd(compared to a dual web armor Nightmare), even before the buff the NM got in the last patch. The 90% web and the ability to field 3 sentry drones acted like a equalizer the Paladin had to shift damage application in its favour under overheated web range, without it there is no real reason to use it over a Nightmare for DPS reasons outside of some specific AS setups where it does a bit better better in performance against a few sniper targets vs the overall much higher tracking and utility of the NM got against close range targets. However the extra RR helps on grid when logis disconnect or other stuff happens. From my experience flying my Paladins back in the days in IIC, the ship lost a lot of potential for Incs with the changes.

[Paladin, OIC Paladin]
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Domination Target Painter
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II

Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

Hobgoblin II x5

The Vargur can be used in a similar fashion for shield fleets(it does less dps than a Mach, especially since it lacks the 100m³ for sentry drones), however it can at least fit a few medium A type remote shield transfers(because nobody of the devs really did replay on my request for a shield transporter fitting bonus on the Vargur or Golem, and I still believe they should have something like this, because it is one of the biggest advantage of the Pala/Kronos in armor), giving it a bit more capability to keep a solo logi locked and alive in 11+1 setups compared to the mach. However I mostly used them as FC for extra safety on grid or backup logi in a 11+1 setup, not so much as overall better alternative to the mach(it does ok for grinding, a bit worse in contests then the mach, while being overall more skill intensive). The only thing it actually does better than the Mach is anti frig performance with ACs by the higher tracking and the extra med for another web. I did that in D-Inc at times when we did lack Vindis and the bottleneck became frig killing speed and since the the spare fitting and ammo can be stored in the massive cargo bay, you can do that in the field with a mobile depo.

[Vargur, Inc Vargur]
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Domination Target Painter
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake L
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Garde II x2
Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

I feel the Paladin is equal to the Nightmare when both are armor fit. EHP is similar, dps the same and you're trading a tracking bonus for an optimal bonus which basically means a NM tach vs Pally pulses.

While the Nightmare has extra mids, the Paladins tank is more easily modified for assault or hq sites without dropping heat sinks. On the other hand, a Nightmare can fly an AB while the Paladin needs an MWD.

Moreover, a Paladin can run 4 remote reps or cap transfers for a minute before running dry which is huge in emergency situations.

Helix Incursions has fielded Vargurs before. We found them amusing, but not necessarilly amazing.

Many thanks for the posts so far! Please keep them coming if you have something to say :)

May I ask: how would a MJD Marauder sniper group work in let's say AS? Or HQ? Given their damage application when in Bastion mode (and locking range) they could properly hit from quite far away, and if they get primaried they can use their MJD to disengage. Since they wouldn't be alone on the fleet, DPS ships could have the targets webbed and busy.

All Marauders have innate range bonuses (optimal for Paladin, Falloff for Vargur and Kronos, missile speed for Golem) and get +25% on falloff and missile speed while on Bastion mode. I guess tachyon Paladins, artillery Vargurs and perhaps even railgun Kronos could work this way? At least we're taking benefit of the MJD bonus (which can't be scrambled by Sanshas) and the EWAR inmunity...

Marauders are primary designed for being nice snipers... perhaps they could better take that role at Incursions?

There is 1 situation I can think of where an MJD has a good application in an HQ fleet. FC or veteran pilot from out of fleet with one to take over after a solo MTAC DC. Thus the MJD bonus is worthless in most applications.

Local tanking HQs and AS is possible if you run a full vargur fleet and mandate a full set of crystals, a full or nearly so rack of top tier tank mods and some 6%s. It might be boxable like this, but that kind of fleet isn't gonna happen in a community without massive pre-planning.

I was just pointing out the flaws in his post. My alts are currently training into paladins right now, so I'll see how that goes.

Also the Bastion Mod might help with site times as it would increase the applied dps per target, but that's once again possibly beaten by the Nightmares extra mids.

There is no flaw, other people flown Paladins for years in Incs and know very well what the hulls can do on grid and can compare it on a fair level herself(what does include marauder 5) to the performance of the Vindicator, NM or Mach that they also do fly quite a bit.



Well it doesn't, that was tested a long time ago by people that flown fully maxed out paladins before the changes every day. The reason for this is that anti frig performance is not sufficient in active tank a marauder fleet, if you want to utilize hulls that produce better results against frigs(Vindis, Puls NMs and AC Machs do) you need logis. While the range of the paladin is absolutely sufficient for VGs without Bastion the tracking is the main bottleneck for damage application and it performs a lot worse without a faction tracking link on it from a Oneiros(that doesn't work on it with bastion).

My option is based on play testing the hulls in different fittings for a couple of hundred hours on grid since the bastion changes and I prefer the NM, because my overall conclusion is that the NM produces better hits, faster sites and got more utility, while even with marauder 5(what most people will not have) the Paladin has less tracking, less dps and issues in the anti frig performance. This also the case to a certain degree against cruisers, hitting them during her slow down at close range(when they deactivate the mwd, reducing her sig while they still move at over 400m/s) both with turrets and even more important with assisted sentry drones. It requires a lot of control over the targets and EW to produce feasible results, allows often to remove a extra romi before it gets in web range in NMCs/NCO, reducing the amount of targets that need to be tackled down at close, allows other ships to directly switch to the next romi that is already under the effect of multiple webs for 10-15 seconds and this is where the extra utility of the NM boosts site times a lot more than just the extra 100 dps or higher tracking would do on its own.

The way we use Paladins is already under the best conditions for the hull, utilizing more painters and webs and have a very effective tackle rotation, allowing for more applied dps on targets, especially on hulls that have issues in this regard, than in comparable shield fleets, where lesser amount of painters and webs would even increase the issues of the Paladin, similar as with active tanked fleets that can utilize less slots to fix that problems by increasing tracking or fielding more tackle.

Because your Invus will stop working with zero cap after getting hit by neuts and your ship will die without resists, sooner or later somebody that still reloads the ASB will catch agro and also will most likely die by this to, this is assuming people allready paying attention and not dieng because they activate her boosters to late(in the same way they hit the broadcast button often to late today). I highly doubt that somebody will do the footwork and follow the fleet around with a hauler full of cap boosters and by my experience people will forget to bring enough cap boosters in the same way as they forget to bring enough ammo or drones today most of the time.

It is not practical, it would only give the FC tons of safety issues he has to deal with on grid. This is the reason why people don't do it.