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Ok, So Now Let's Balance Local Now To \0/\0/

Author
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#61 - 2014-06-20 02:14:32 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
noone gets instant identification of someone ten jumps away


WTF world are you living in? Do you really expect any of us to believe that? What?


the game does not tell you who's ten jumps away.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Why? Why should people docked many systems away know that specifically I am there? This is not the spirit in which EVE Online was founded. Even the devs stated that local could use some fixing, it is just that people like you cry quarts every time a fair improvement is submitted.

Mostly... because you have no real PVP skill and do not realize that such a change would hardly effect you at all. See post #53 and #54. Your ignorance and fear make you imagine a world were simply not knowing a character's name would make Null Sec a PVP free for all. That is just not the case at all.


perhaps you should provide a reason for it being a bad game mechanic. otherwise any statement you make is refuted with "no it's not".

more fallacy. it doesn't matter my level of pvp skills and it doesn't matter how much a change'd effect me. it also doesn't matter if i'm ignorant or fearful, you have still to provide an actual valid reason to make a change.[/quote]

He has given you a Clear reason why the current local mechanic is Bad... You clearly just can't comprehend it. A name is easily dragged and dropped into Alliance or Intel channel.... And suddenly everyone knows who and where he is. This is exactly Why NULL is safer than Hisec... Which is a traggic irony for Eve. TBH, if Null lost it's local, more ppl would come down to roam there because otherwise with such easy intel it's futile.

You should have roam/guard your own space in Null. Do Nations allow foreign troops to roll through their cities freely? Heck no! Things need to change... But agreable to middle ground and the OP's suggestion is a fair one. Also think this should be for lowsec, and Null should have to put up deployables at certain sov levels to gain a "Local" kind of system... But never with names.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-06-20 02:28:27 UTC
Cordo Draken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
noone gets instant identification of someone ten jumps away


WTF world are you living in? Do you really expect any of us to believe that? What?


the game does not tell you who's ten jumps away.



I live in a country where running my own business means I spend 4-5 hours a month doing mindless record keeping for the tax department. I did that today. While I did that I had eve running on my secondary monitor. I had an alt docked in a pipe system entering a well populated 0.0 region. When ever a gap appeared in my list of green stars, blue stars and blue crosses I linked the name beside the gap into a regional intel channel that I know was being monitored over 28 jumps away.

I watched as players next door did the same, and the players next door to them, and the players next door to them...

It may not be instant, but any decent 0.0 sov holder has this system organised to the point where an average pilot like me can travel the same pipe that 2-3 separate groups of hostiles are using, only caring about the hostiles if they are in system at either end of a jump bridge I want to use.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#63 - 2014-06-20 08:47:32 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
I'm on this eternum guys side of the fence in all honesty. Local should show how many people in system but not details. In low and null.

Why?

There is a large amount of pilots up for this but the vocal null sec isk milkers would not wish it and thus it won't be. Null sec is full of carebears it's really that simple, why would you want it to change aye? Sure you need to keep and hold your SOV, turns out local means you don't need to actually patrol it to keep your renters safe. nope, you just need region wide intel channels and a cyno. I'm not wrong, null sec players know i'm not wrong yet still you'll all hate to see this boat rocked.


Yeah god forbid we should actually be able to use our space to rat in.


The point was that omce captured there's no effort spent on maintaining it. No degradation of benefits or control.
Shivanthar
#64 - 2014-06-20 09:50:50 UTC
When I haz ratz and shooz ze with my Marauderz in baztion mode, I haz to readz localz in nullz, or elze yourz zeptorz might tackle uz 8-{

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Maz Ngomo
#65 - 2014-06-20 09:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maz Ngomo
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
most people in null sec don't chat in local anyway. They chat on fleet coms and in alliance/corp chat.
It's just that... well... If only my picture and name was not just floating there for all to see all of the time.

I know it's not really what you meant, but my first reaction to this statement was, 'now here's a guy who's never been in system with TEST or Goons'. Lol

Either way, it's something that's been suggested for years and really doesn't need changing.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#66 - 2014-06-20 13:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

That seems too one sided towards the PVP side of things. Everyone would become an AFK cloaker in any ship they wanted. So, as cool as that would be Big smile I cannot agree.


So what ?

AFK is as AFK does. Local doesn't tell you who's away from their keyboard or not, and neither would the amendment I propose. ;)

You, me and the next guy -- we're either paying attention to our screen or not. It cuts both ways. Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#67 - 2014-06-20 13:30:59 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Cordo Draken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
noone gets instant identification of someone ten jumps away


WTF world are you living in? Do you really expect any of us to believe that? What?


the game does not tell you who's ten jumps away.



I live in a country where running my own business means I spend 4-5 hours a month doing mindless record keeping for the tax department. I did that today. While I did that I had eve running on my secondary monitor. I had an alt docked in a pipe system entering a well populated 0.0 region. When ever a gap appeared in my list of green stars, blue stars and blue crosses I linked the name beside the gap into a regional intel channel that I know was being monitored over 28 jumps away.

I watched as players next door did the same, and the players next door to them, and the players next door to them...

It may not be instant, but any decent 0.0 sov holder has this system organised to the point where an average pilot like me can travel the same pipe that 2-3 separate groups of hostiles are using, only caring about the hostiles if they are in system at either end of a jump bridge I want to use.

THIS.

Local may not actually deliver it's intel outside the system directly, but it gives insane leverage to those willing to invest TRIVIAL effort to relay that which should be far more effort driven.

THAT makes sustaining sov significantly easier than it would be otherwise, as the sov holders cost of maintaining intel reflects the trivial effort needed. This could fairly be described as having dumbed down the efforts, to near zero.
(What? forget training any stealth or scanning skills, just click and drag from local? Don't even need to undock?)

Now, on the other side, it severely dumbs down the efforts needed to scout and hunt for targets. This drops it to levels normally reserved for arena games, as locating opponents is a simple matter of seeing a name in a chat channel.
So many systems in EVE to sort through, and we turn around and give away key intel so noone needs to actually learn how to hunt.
Just pop dscan, find that nearest belt or anomaly, and off you go.

Bring a cyno, your buddies couldn't be bothered to even leave their staging system in the next constellation.... too much (YAWN) effort....
Iain Cariaba
#68 - 2014-06-20 16:01:03 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Bring a cyno, your buddies couldn't be bothered to even leave their staging system in the next constellation.... too much (YAWN) effort....

This is why null local should remain exactly like it is. So what if we can see who you are when you only have to send one pilot in to find a target for 20+ other pilots?

Besides, OP's complaint is that his targets know what he flies, not just who he is. This is his own fault, not local channel's. If you didn't continously hunt the same areas over and over and over and over and over again, you'd probably get more targets. Ask any RL hunter.
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#69 - 2014-06-20 16:12:26 UTC
Rectile wrote:
OP has a few good points,

why should null bears who are docked up have an eye and ear on everything, 'where is the risk'? for so much reward especially in null sec the allegedly most dangerous part of New Eden.

Local chat is too powerful as it is

It should be delayed at the very least but preferably the same as WH's

any one who opposes this change are generally null bears or botters and have not got the true essence or longevity of eve in mind.


Couldn't say it better.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#70 - 2014-06-20 16:34:57 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Bring a cyno, your buddies couldn't be bothered to even leave their staging system in the next constellation.... too much (YAWN) effort....

This is why null local should remain exactly like it is. So what if we can see who you are when you only have to send one pilot in to find a target for 20+ other pilots?

Besides, OP's complaint is that his targets know what he flies, not just who he is. This is his own fault, not local channel's. If you didn't continously hunt the same areas over and over and over and over and over again, you'd probably get more targets. Ask any RL hunter.

Actually, that was not full disclosure of significant details.

Would 20+ pilots have ANY realistic chance of finding targets, with local present in it's current form?
Only consensual ones. Kind of like an arena game throwing out invitations, anyone not interested can easily avoid such an obvious presence.

The population spike, which is absurdly obvious and easy to notice, makes direct presence play an awful idea.
BECAUSE of local, we need the cyno, not the other way around. This cyno approach exists because local makes it necessary.

PvP is not supposed to require consent.
Good luck catching anyone except by choice, with local.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch and Tea
#71 - 2014-06-20 17:48:51 UTC
I have been complaining about local for over a decade now. Good luck there.

To wit: A lot of the original devs stated that local should have never been used as an intel tool...most notably TomB was very infamous for hating it (being a dirty griefer that he is). We got wormhole space, so at least be thankful of that.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#72 - 2014-06-20 18:13:34 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
I have been complaining about local for over a decade now. Good luck there.

To wit: A lot of the original devs stated that local should have never been used as an intel tool...most notably TomB was very infamous for hating it (being a dirty griefer that he is). We got wormhole space, so at least be thankful of that.

I would be, if wormhole space was not effectively such a fringe aspect of the game as a whole.

Unfortunately, WH living is an extreme play style, which also excludes all of this:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.

Local not being present is simply not the defining element of a WH. It is simply one among many differences.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-06-20 18:38:14 UTC
I am a strong proponent of local being tied to sovereignty upgrades, but that is predicated on a very major sovereignty overhaul.

It is a lot easier to send out several scouts then it is to keep twenty people at gates or warping in the right direction. Its surprising how much complaining there is about a lack of small gang warfare when so few of you are interested in doing it.
Whats also surprising is how often 5 ships will find a fight vs how often 25 ships will find a fight.

perhaps that says something to you? a suggestion maybe?
risk adverse bitches whining about "my blob never finds people who want to get ganked"
/thread

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2014-08-04 03:57:33 UTC
CCP This must become a Sticky!!!

Null Sec is a very safe place to be. Intel channels run by alliances and across coalitions of alliances provide incredible intel on the movement of neutrals from single players right through to large gangs.

You can safely semi afk in null sec and never have to worry about being dropped on by anyone travelling by stargate. The only real danger is WH guys dropping through and cyno's. But if anyone is normally within a couple of jumps of you, or a potential cyno is in system, most players just safe up or dock up.

Local is the source of information for the intel channels and needs to be addressed if null sec is to represent the third tier of EVE security levels, and I would agree with other posts that null sec is a lot safer than high sec and low sec.

Null Sec

Remove local in its current form and replace with a system that requires deployables which are easily destroyed. This enables players to remove these deployables before major operations if they believe this provides a strategic advantage. This should be able to be accomplished by a small gang in cruiser sized ships.

Provide a short radius for reporting neutrals perhaps 350km. Cloaked ships wouldn't appear in this radar range.

Don't allow these to be instant reports on neutrals but allow it to scale with the number of neutrals which jump into system at the same time. 1 - 5 neutrals might take 5 minutes to report activity, 20+ might be 10 sec.

Once the report has occurred the system wouldn't report exits from a system. Once the initial report has been produced remove the report after 1 min. It shouldn't be a permanent report for the system just a quick notification requiring players to stay alert.

High Sec
Would have the current local system as Concord wants to keep tabs on all players in the system and wants to know at all times where they are located, including if a player has attacked another player.

Low Sec
Might have Concord monitoring activity constantly at gates and stations which they regularly patrol but away from these protected areas Low Sec would operate the same as Null Sec. There may be longer report periods and people exiting systems would be reported by Concord.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#75 - 2014-08-04 05:23:04 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Perhaps the alliance you are in could see their way to setting aside a few guys to patrol your space. Pay them maybe? With the rent isk? Some user content RIGHT THERE. Oh wait that'd be silly, that isk I am sure would be better spent shooting at carebears in high sec that get angry they are getting stopped from making isk in a risk free envir........ wait a freaking second. I see some kind of pattern....

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.


This is exactly what we do in wormholes. Local is a cancer and it needs to go.
Claud Tiberius
#76 - 2014-08-04 06:20:27 UTC
+1

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.

Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#77 - 2014-08-04 06:49:15 UTC
To the OP,

K-Space is easy mode in EVE because of local channel. If you want the hard mode in EVE, you'll need to go roam in wormhole space where local channel is very much empty. It's more fun to hunt in wh's. Get rid of that crutch. CCP won't take that easy mode away from all the null bears. They'd cry too much.

Sincerely,
Crazy WH Guy
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-08-04 07:32:04 UTC
With the Devs doing quicker updates/cyc/es/whatevers, is it really beyond them to say, "Fine! We've had 3 billion threads asking for a removal of local (altogether/just in nullsec/take your pick). So, since we're on six-week cycles, we'll give each idea a six-week window to prove itself through experimentation rather than conjecture on the forums"?

I'm not going to argue for or against the idea itself, but since the mechanics are already encoded in the game (thanks to wormhole space), they can just alter which areas of space are effected. Let's just settle the damn arguments already. The worst that can happen is some groups are mildly inconvenienced for a short period of time. The best that can happen is that one of the ideas becomes really popular and becomes implemented, or none of the ideas pan out and we can just drop the subject already.

Devs! Time to make it so.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#79 - 2014-08-04 08:24:23 UTC
I see a constant complaint that local is effort free.

Then the ludicrous claim that well maintained Intel channels are too easy, or provide too much for the effort. Never mind it's multiple pilots actively involved in the game and keeping the system running doing work so boring you would have to pay me $20/he to do it consistently.

I would love to hear what exactly is enough effort to keep local as is. I don't believe those that want it gone are willing to compromise at all. The only way to make Intel channels more of a pita to maintain would be to hook the keyboard to a spanking machine.

It's all just the whines from a pack of jackels that insist on hunting ships that rely on evasion to survive. The problem is the stark polarity of PvP, there are few cases of narrow escapes or close fights... You don't stick aroun--- you gtfo or die.

Blame infinite hard tackle. More would be willing to try the fight if there was a chance to escape when things go wrong. As it is, if they get on grid you are already dead or else not doing PvE.
Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-08-04 12:41:57 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I see a constant complaint that local is effort free.

Then the ludicrous claim that well maintained Intel channels are too easy, or provide too much for the effort.


The intel channels run by alliances and coalitions are quick and easy for players to report, simply by dragging and dropping the player name, system etc. It takes two secs and you can have half of EVE aware of a neutral player or group moving through a system.

With larger groups the intel becomes very regular and detailed. This is not a bad thing and is developed by alliances and creates great content.

The issue is the local window broadcasting everyone in a system, their details, when they enter and when they leave. This is totally overpowered and eliminates content from EVE.

As soon as a neutral player enters a system occupied by an alliance member, the intel report goes up to the whole alliance and everyone within X jumps will move immediately to a safe or a station.

You can roam through null sec for hours not finding anyone unless they are AFK, a newbie or someone who wants a fight and brought 10 players with them.

Why is null sec stagnate = The Local Window is a big part of the issue.

Remove the Local Window and replace with deployables which provide limited range and time notification to the players in the system.

Have the system pull down reports on players after 1 min (or some other timeframe) instead of the current instant and cotinuous reporting process Local provides.