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Ok, So Now Let's Balance Local Now To \0/\0/

Author
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-06-19 02:18:23 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:


The only thing that I would have concerns over is the status of low sec. The proposed system could make pipe ganks in low sec extremely easy. Having the same system for low sec and high sec could make the transition from empire to 0.0 of future potential 0.0 players from even more difficult than it currently is.



I think you are probably right. Got any ideas?


Nope. Making a feature to allow all types of game play that involves a transition through 3 different security zones, is opening a bag of cats.



Hmmmmmm... .. Maaaaybe....


Low Sec is about factions and sec status right? Maybe somehow local could reflect that in low sec. Like... instead of my picture, a picture of my corporation. My faction. A pirate skull representing my -10 status or something.

Might that be a viable (enough) of a transition?

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Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#22 - 2014-06-19 02:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Christine Peeveepeeski
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Perhaps the alliance you are in could see their way to setting aside a few guys to patrol your space. Pay them maybe? With the rent isk? Some user content RIGHT THERE. Oh wait that'd be silly, that isk I am sure would be better spent shooting at carebears in high sec that get angry they are getting stopped from making isk in a risk free envir........ wait a freaking second. I see some kind of pattern....

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.


That's what you got from 'patrol your space'? Wow, you either have no imagination or you are so used to arguing against changes to local that you're not actually putting any thought into what 'could' be.

Bare in mind that your small gangers would benefit from doing to your enemies what can be done to you and arguably null sec alliances have so many bored players about surely the extra content option would be welcome. It would also attract more small gang minded people into null sec. There is literally 0 reason to head too null right now for small gangers/soloers. Arguably the only reason you do is because your capital alt is in an F1 alliance and you may also use null for anom running (although as far as I can tell thats a mugs game'.


BAH ****** up the quote, my apologies
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-06-19 02:35:18 UTC
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
[

That's what you got from 'patrol your space'? Wow, you either have no imagination or you are so used to arguing against changes to local that you're not actually putting any thought into what 'could' be.s


I know right, when you said that I thought more along the lines of "you and you dock up and go pwn this guy". Rage cage the gate and get his ass. That is what you "badasses" in null sec are supposed to do right?

Miners these days have nothing to fear from my little interceptor either. I can just float and sputter as a fleet of mining procurers deal 1,000 dps and 10 drones each. How many inty's do you think that could **** if they had even the slightest fleet coordination?


Maybe you just forgot what "being a major null sec alliance" is supposed to mean.

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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#24 - 2014-06-19 02:37:45 UTC
Local should be and always should have been treated the same as Alliance and W-Space Local. This notion that you must be able to immediately know everyone in the system is ludicrous in a game as hardcore as EvE. It would be like playing an FPS and hacking the radar.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#25 - 2014-06-19 03:02:26 UTC
IMO a "Mode 4/IFF" system similar to what the RL air forces use would be more ideal, and use around such a system can signify intent.

Basically it's a beacon that, to those who are blue to you (or organization) can see you in local and who you are, but those who are not only know that "someone" is there, but do not get any telemetry ID or information. But a separate mode for "broadcast all" (used to be called "Mode 2" back in the day - airlines use this) that lets you be visible, name and all, in local. So if you are some heinously known PVPer perhaps you can use that to your advantage.

Shut the entire thing down though, and all that's known is "someone is in the system". Who? Is it a friend who did not turn on their Mode2/4? What are they trying to hide? Who is that? I gotta know! Arrrrgh!!

To be fair though, this system could even work in highsec but flying without your ID "on" gives you a suspect flag (just like flying a plane into foreign airspace without any identifier will get you similar attention) - but for some situations where kill rights are concerned or highsec wars, having a suspect flag might be better than the 100 guys ready to gank you in a wardec - but those same 100 guys might have to chase every suspect flag.

You see a little applied thought instead of "hurf blurf" can go a long way and I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-06-19 03:10:56 UTC
The only argument in favor of removing Local from null is by those who are actively looking for a fight. Arguably there are hundreds of other usages of a system that do not involve actively looking for a fight, such as:
Travel
Any PVE activity (explo, ratting, PI, mining)

These usages currently rely on Local as intel to augment other intelligence methods (corp intel channels, cloaks scouts, dscan, etc.)

Your only argument for removing Local is to make finding fights easier.

Removing Local makes all these other usages I've described more difficult.

Making your own specific usage easier isn't a particularly good argument. The burden is on you to argue why the current rules are making for a worse game overall.

I don't particularly see why gate camping should be any easier than it already is.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#27 - 2014-06-19 03:19:28 UTC
Gate camping is partially due to how powerful Local is...

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-06-19 03:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Actually, I'll take that back. Gate camping (and escaping camps) is no easier or worse with the proposed change to Local. Neither side will benefit from the intelligence provided (entrants wouldn't know about cloaked lurkers, campers wouldn't know the moment someone has entered the system).

I'll also add another point. Wormholes exist in the game with the exact Local mechanics you are looking for.

Why don't you go play in Wormholes to get this experience? Is there any particular reason null Local mechanics need to be like WH? How will this improve the game? I'd like to see an answer in both micro and macro scale..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#29 - 2014-06-19 03:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Christine Peeveepeeski
Did you read the OP? It's not removal of local. The idea is sound and you would not get any less knowledge of somebody being in your system, you just need to see them to find out who they are.

As for it being to get fights.... er yes, yes it is. Actually it's to generate content, in null sec. Currently null sec seems so devoid of it people don't play and turn to low and high sec to get their kicks. Unless a capitals tackled of course then it's **** LOG IN THE TITAN HUGGER CHAR.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-06-19 03:40:46 UTC
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Did you read the OP? It's not removal of local. The idea is sound and you would not get any less knowledge of somebody being in your system, you just need to see them to find out who they are.

Maybe you don't know how to use Local properly. A static pod count is worthless. It is the removal of Local for all intents and purposes. Local as it is built allows you to do difflists so as to track changes in a system (try Ctrl+A in the pilot list sometime). A static pod count tells me nothing about war targets or specific pilots.

If you like the absence of Local, you can fly in WH. Why is that a problem for you?

Quote:
As for it being to get fights.... er yes, yes it is. Actually it's to generate content, in null sec. Currently null sec seems so devoid of it people don't play and turn to low and high sec to get their kicks. Unless a capitals tackled of course then it's **** LOG IN THE TITAN HUGGER CHAR.

You call it "generate content". I call it easy mode for pew. I have pew pilots too, but I see no compelling reason presented here to rebalance things more in favor towards roamers and weaken activities with static locations within a system.

Is PVP in 0.0 too difficult for you right now? Do you feel exposed with your war target-y name blinking in Local for the natives?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-06-19 03:43:40 UTC
And seriously, hiding me in Local makes my job mining rocks a lot easier. I'd be happy if that change was made. You don't want this. It's a terrible way to suck a lot of content out of 0.0.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-06-19 06:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Quinn Corvez
I think one easy fix would be to delay someone's appearance in local. You should only show up once your session change cloak has ended.

After that, the ability for players to hide themselves from local is something we have needed for a long time.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-06-19 06:34:59 UTC
Yeah look, we have hisec, low sec, null sec and wh space.
The first is rookie pond, the last is end game. Null is for sov, low is for FW and as an intermediate between high and null.
Limited playstylers who want this to be more like that, high to be null, whatever, don't get it and have not thought through the ramifications of the changes.
Also, insults to other playstyles invalidate suggestions.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#34 - 2014-06-19 07:13:14 UTC
Or as I have said in other thread about this subject, what about binding local to how active the system actually is.
Idea of a mechanic would be similar to how sov status goes up and down depending on activity and but local would depend on how many individual pilots log on and off in the system (pos or station or space) during the day.

So lvl 0-1 would be just an announcement that xxx has arrived the system and local would work identical to w-holes.
lvl 2 would have gate announcement, and 5 minute timer but still doesn't track if you actually leave the system.
lvl 3 gate announcement, 15min timer and tracks if you leave the system.
lvl 4 same as above but with a 45min timer and tracking
lvl 5 would have the announcement and would behave as the local that we have now.

Gate announcement could be turned off or maybe it would just say several people arrived if say more then 10 jump in tah the same time ?
So that gate wouldn't spam local all the time in busy systems.

Idea of mine behind this is to reward actually living in space that you own be that you or your renters and make it fell less like a frontier in habited space and more so in places where it isn't.

Note that I left w-hole activation from the list just because it makes to much sense and might leave a cyno as well because you don't arrive to a system through a gate in both cases. PirateTwisted
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#35 - 2014-06-19 07:17:35 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
I think one easy fix would be to delay someone's appearance in local. You should only show up once your session change cloak has ended.

After that, the ability for players to hide themselves from local is something we have needed for a long time.


IMO that would require you to not be able to see local, and not be able to use your d-scan since you are immune to both. I would not care if you can see the gate grid, because participants on the gate grid can see the gate flash.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-06-19 07:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Here's the non-argument for the change provided by the OP:

1) I just didn't like it that they new exactly who was there.
2) People can see I'm there.
-> Here's my solution for that. You can still dock up if you see +1 in local

this is the actual 'reasoning' provided by the way

followed by

Quote:
The first null guy hopelessly reliant on his easy button local speaks. Dude, you can still know someone is there without knowing who is there.

Quote:
Man you null guys really are scared ****less aren't you What?
WTF does it matter if you still know that someone is there? Why do you HAVE to know who is there? What is the gain? I don't get it.

Quote:
You have not posted a single valid counter argument so far... except for the fact that you want to keep your super stupid easy button. Even CCP stated that they wanted to do away with local but now it is too engrained to do so.

So what is YOUR reasoning on this matter?


... [fallacies]
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#37 - 2014-06-19 07:42:18 UTC
Baneken wrote:


Idea of mine behind this is to reward actually living in space that you own be that you or your renters and make it fell less like a frontier in habited space and more so in places where it isn't.

Note that I left w-hole activation from the list just because it makes to much sense and might leave a cyno as well because you don't arrive to a system through a gate in both cases. PirateTwisted


You appear to be doubling up on the purposes performed by indexes. As a solo player I can occasionally hold the military index at 4, and can't even scratch indy at all. A large corp can hold index 5 on all indexes, and in my case, on my pipe that gives them a forsaken hub, more reasonable anomolies total, more miniprofs and more ded signature spawns, and when they are at indy 5 they get enough anomolies to make determining the location of the miners not absolutely automatic and trivial.

Intel quality should be tied to effort made in collecting said intel, it shouldn't be a reward for logging in and out, which I would simply do x number of times a day to improve mine, all the time gritting my teeth and hating you for making me do such a stupid pointless thing (a well known phenomenon in gaming).

I happen to pve within d-scan range of my gates, which is a risk (i'm relatively close to interceptors on the gate) and a reward (I can always see the hull type of an entrant by spamming after they arrive in local). Intel should be tied to effort and risk, not logging on.
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#38 - 2014-06-19 09:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Llyona
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Perhaps the alliance you are in could see their way to setting aside a few guys to patrol your space. Pay them maybe? With the rent isk? Some user content RIGHT THERE. Oh wait that'd be silly, that isk I am sure would be better spent shooting at carebears in high sec that get angry they are getting stopped from making isk in a risk free envir........ wait a freaking second. I see some kind of pattern....

Yeah let's sit on a gate for several hours just so people can rat. What a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic.


The hilarious thing is, this is exactly what happens in W-space. We have cloaky alts on the various holes keeping eyes on who comes and goes. We seem to be operating just fine this way without any local, all while flying ships worth far more than your carriers. When it comes down to it, local makes people lazy and entitled.

I think the best solution to the local problem is removing cloaked ships from the list.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

Rectile
Warped
#39 - 2014-06-19 09:31:35 UTC
OP has a few good points,

why should null bears who are docked up have an eye and ear on everything, 'where is the risk'? for so much reward especially in null sec the allegedly most dangerous part of New Eden.

Local chat is too powerful as it is

It should be delayed at the very least but preferably the same as WH's

any one who opposes this change are generally null bears or botters and have not got the true essence or longevity of eve in mind.
Milla Stenier-Tian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-06-19 09:37:19 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
It can be argued that npc Empire factions have all kinds of apparatus in each system to keep track of any capsuleer's whereabouts. Big Brother is always watching.

In the deep dark of Null, nobody gives a damn. And certainly not the passive apparatus of Empire factions -- because it doesn't exist out there.



I like this Idea.


May the nullsec would required an ihub with a new upgrade to track peoples in local.
If not : no local (unless you speak in local).

The background could be explain by the way you said.