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Dev blog: Starbase changes for Crius

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Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2014-06-17 17:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Veinnail
some big industrialists that produce in a pos, probably have 20-30b of materials suspended in assembly. Has CCP considered making some materials recoverable should the operator cancel the production (maybe similar to the losses on reprocessing modules[compression nerf]) this would give attentive operators the chance to recover items from longer builds, at a loss.
Letto Atreides
Still Water Intergalactic Holdings
#202 - 2014-06-17 17:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gospadin wrote:
I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.


You are very wrong. It both requires a war dec to avoid CONCORD in high-sec and a large fleets worth of DPS to get through an offline stick in a timely fashion. Here's an example of a kill of an offline large caldari tower.
*snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.

However a change that makes offline POS easier to blow up would be a very good change indeed!
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2014-06-17 17:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Veinnail
Veinnail wrote:
some big industrialists that produce in a pos, probably have 20-30b of materials suspended in assembly. Has CCP considered making some materials recoverable should the operator cancel the production (maybe similar to the losses on reprocessing modules[compression nerf]) this would give attentive operators the chance to recover items from longer builds, at a loss.



or secondarily, Make it so that the final products are released to the hangar as completed.

so if you're running 10 thoraxes, every few hours, a thorax appears in the hangar

imagining some sort of progress bar, and queue of minerals held for the job. cancellation returns a depreciated portion of the remaining minerals.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#204 - 2014-06-17 17:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Letto Atreides wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.


You are very wrong. It both requires a war dec to avoid CONCORD in high-sec and a large fleets worth of DPS to get through an offline stick in a timely fashion. Here's an example of a kill of an offline large caldari tower.
*snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.

However a change that makes offline POS easier to blow up would be a very good change indeed!


Read my post again.

I know it's a pain in the *** to shoot offline towers, hence my suggestion.
Letto Atreides
Still Water Intergalactic Holdings
#205 - 2014-06-17 17:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gospadin wrote:
Letto Atreides wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.


You are very wrong. It both requires a war dec to avoid CONCORD in high-sec and a large fleets worth of DPS to get through an offline stick in a timely fashion. Here's an example of a kill of an offline large caldari tower.
*snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.
However a change that makes offline POS easier to blow up would be a very good change indeed!


Read my post again.

I know it's a pain in the *** to shoot offline towers, hence my suggestion.


Sorry... read your first post as a statement not as a suggestion. We are in agreement. It should not require a fleet of dreads to clean up offline space junk. I think offline towers should just be unanchorable by anyone that stumbles upon then.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#206 - 2014-06-17 18:07:02 UTC
cellestron wrote:

First of all I am not calling anyone out. Those are your words not mine. Pretty much any large group could do it.

This question right here is my point. Post-Crius high-sec POS will no longer be "useless".

As far as the rest of your questions...currently Pre-Crius there is no point. Post-Crius there will be. Will it be worth it to do so? I don't know. But I don't really want to find out.

if anyone would do it, we would, it's just not worth it to us at all

there's so many moons in highsec and shooting undefended pos with subcaps is an absolutely unfun waste of several hours, repeated hundreds or thousands of times to have any effect at all (and probably would have to be like ten thousand)

then you just shoot one of our offline thousand towers and take the spot for 500m

sounds like a own-goal when it comes to griefing - a few years back we tried just clearing a random system to be dicks and there was basically no interest left to even finish that one system because it was so, so unfun and people could just move next door
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2014-06-17 18:08:28 UTC
Ozwald Dragorian wrote:

I agree fully. Our corp spent an immense amount of time sorting out pilots to fly the Rorqual simply for it's compression mechanic that made it unique. The Rorqual must receive a bonus towards compression or they become obsolete. I do not want to think of it as a stupid mining boosting ship that has to consume fuel in order for the hulks to be efficient when that fuel consumption is in fact defeating purpose of the boosts. I am considering small mining ops.

I would hate to see the ship being sat useless as it actually becomes with the addition to the compression arrays making everything so simple for everyone. Sick of the dumbing down, really am.

the rorqual is a tower logistics ship that's cheaper than a jf and has slightly better ability to defend itself and summon help, that's 95% of its use right now
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#208 - 2014-06-17 18:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Letto Atreides wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Letto Atreides wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.


You are very wrong. It both requires a war dec to avoid CONCORD in high-sec and a large fleets worth of DPS to get through an offline stick in a timely fashion. Here's an example of a kill of an offline large caldari tower.
*snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.

However a change that makes offline POS easier to blow up would be a very good change indeed!


Read my post again.

I know it's a pain in the *** to shoot offline towers, hence my suggestion.


Sorry... read your first post as a statement not as a suggestion. We are in agreement. It should not require a fleet of dreads to clean up offline space junk. I think offline towers should just be unanchorable by anyone that stumbles upon then.


How about this:

Have anchoring a tower start a two week countdown timer. Once that two weeks expires, the tower goes from Anchored to Abandoned, at which point anyone can unanchor and scoop it (or online it themselves with fuel). All the other anchored modules tied to that tower become owned by the corp of the character who onlines it.

Every time you put fuel in the tower, it resets that two week timer.

Two weeks should be enough for anyone with "normal" RL issues to get back in time to refuel it, and for everyone else, too bad.
Nikita Eyrou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-06-17 18:19:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Querns wrote:
Could I ask for some clarification on one point? I don't think I fully understand the change to Supply Chain Management (SCM) and Scientific Networking. Are you removing the regional restriction for starting RAM jobs remotely? For example, if I had SCM trained to 1, could I start a job in Muvolailen (The Citadel) from Jita (The Forge)?


Yes, regional limits are being removed. The new skills will just check for jump distance between blueprint and yourself.

Can this also be done to trade skills at some point?
Would really appreciate it Twisted
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#210 - 2014-06-17 19:31:53 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
How about this:

Have anchoring a tower start a two week countdown timer. Once that two weeks expires, the tower goes from Anchored to Abandoned, at which point anyone can unanchor and scoop it (or online it themselves with fuel). All the other anchored modules tied to that tower become owned by the corp of the character who onlines it.

Every time you put fuel in the tower, it resets that two week timer.

Two weeks should be enough for anyone with "normal" RL issues to get back in time to refuel it, and for everyone else, too bad.

Make it two weeks after the tower goes offline and I'm okay with this--POSes have space for a month of fuel, so going abandoned after only two weeks while still online is silly.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2014-06-17 20:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
No one from CCP directly wrote:
It will cost ISK to install jobs in player owned structures.


I like that I'm not the only one that has a problem with this, though I wish more were in this thread. Apart from a brown-nosing CSM, no one has really given an actual reason for this. CCP in general seems to be doing a pretty aggressive dance around this new development, as they, for some COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE reason, don't want to directly state this.

The change is confusing because for the last eleven years, the prevailing logic in all industrial concerns, was that fabrication was automated, "blueprints" were a hunk of encrypted proprietary data, and, later, "invention" was just a nice way to say "intellectual property theft." Jam blueprint + materials into autofab, pres butan, get bacon. NPC stations charged "rent' to use their industrial autofabs because they built them, and charging for use of something you built is your right.

So in all of this, I fail to understand why my unpressurized factory floating in the cold depths of space (that I built) suddenly has a coin slot that demands competitive rates... From ME. Rates that are reduced by the number of identical structures nearby. Are labs and factories suddenly possessed by sentient AIs with gambling addictions? Have the space homeless invaded my structures to demand competitive spare change?

I get there needs to be ISK sinks to counter all the artificially generated currency, but how did they get on **** I built?

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Callic Veratar
#212 - 2014-06-17 21:08:49 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
No one from CCP directly wrote:
It will cost ISK to install jobs in player owned structures.


I like that I'm not the only one that has a problem with this, though I wish more were in this thread. Apart from a brown-nosing CSM, no one has really given an actual reason for this. CCP in general seems to be doing a pretty aggressive dance around this new development, as they, for some COMPLETELY UNKNOWABLE reason, don't want to directly state this.

The change is confusing because for the last eleven years, the prevailing logic in all industrial concerns, was that fabrication was automated, "blueprints" were a hunk of encrypted proprietary data, and, later, "invention" was just a nice way to say "intellectual property theft." Jam blueprint + materials into autofab, pres butan, get bacon. NPC stations charged "rent' to use their industrial autofabs because they built them, and charging for use of something you built is your right.

So in all of this, I fail to understand why my unpressurized factory floating in the cold depths of space (that I built) suddenly has a coin slot that demands competitive rates... From ME. Rates that are reduced by the number of identical structures nearby. Are labs and factories suddenly possessed by sentient AIs with gambling addictions? Have the space homeless invaded my structures to demand competitive spare change?

I get there needs to be ISK sinks to counter all the artificially generated currency, but how did they get on **** I built?


From the lore perspective, it was stated that the workforce for a single system has decided to start charging realistic prices for their services (I believe it's tacked at 1% of the cost of the good, so the Abaddon, for example would cost 2M to build * stuff). The more people building in a system, the greater the demand for the workforce, so the more they would charge.

The disconnect is the assumption that the population of EVE is merely capsuleers. That the factories are dead and empty and not bustling with thousands of people working on the manufacturing lines.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2014-06-17 21:18:32 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:

I get there needs to be ISK sinks to counter all the artificially generated currency, but how did they get on **** I built?

you didn't build that
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2014-06-17 22:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
Callic Veratar wrote:
From the lore perspective, it was stated that the workforce for a single system has decided to start charging realistic prices for their services (I believe it's tacked at 1% of the cost of the good, so the Abaddon, for example would cost 2M to build * stuff). The more people building in a system, the greater the demand for the workforce, so the more they would charge.

The disconnect is the assumption that the population of EVE is merely capsuleers. That the factories are dead and empty and not bustling with thousands of people working on the manufacturing lines.


But there is no workforce. Production is automated. You're thinking as if factories tens of thousands of years in the future will still be run by blue collar unions.

Retar Aveymone wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:

I get there needs to be ISK sinks to counter all the artificially generated currency, but how did they get on **** I built?

you didn't build that
Oh, so someone hacked the autofabs to include a coin slot on everyone's ****.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Ereshgikal
Wharf Crusaders
#215 - 2014-06-17 23:52:59 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
From the lore perspective, it was stated that the workforce for a single system has decided to start charging realistic prices for their services (I believe it's tacked at 1% of the cost of the good, so the Abaddon, for example would cost 2M to build * stuff). The more people building in a system, the greater the demand for the workforce, so the more they would charge.

The disconnect is the assumption that the population of EVE is merely capsuleers. That the factories are dead and empty and not bustling with thousands of people working on the manufacturing lines.


But there is no workforce. Production is automated. You're thinking as if factories tens of thousands of years in the future will still be run by blue collar unions.


But you have no problem with sound in space; or that there are magical asteroids just "appearing" in "belts" and "anomalies"; Or that millions of NPC characters die when people go ratting?

I know "EVE is real" is a good slogan, but....really, it isn't realistic.
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2014-06-18 00:59:56 UTC
is it still necessary to create a max-run blueprint copy to get a max run tech 2 blueprint after invention?

I tried running doing a max copy-run of ultraviolet crystals to invent, but it's taking ten times longer than before. This is kind of a big deal.
PaulsAvatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2014-06-18 01:11:56 UTC
Right now I have perfect production and can compete with two arrays, making a decent margin on the quantity of stuff I produce. What's proposed now is that I will have to purchase, hang, and online 48 more arrays in order to be in a similar position.

48.

Seriously, who even began to think of that as reasonable.

Cut max benefit at 50 down to say.... tops out at 5, and we'll be out of the realm of terrible drunken idea and into reasonable and could be argued territory.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#218 - 2014-06-18 01:23:12 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
is it still necessary to create a max-run blueprint copy to get a max run tech 2 blueprint after invention?

I tried running doing a max copy-run of ultraviolet crystals to invent, but it's taking ten times longer than before. This is kind of a big deal.



Nope.

Each invention job will consume a single run from a bpc. (It'll be retained until the job completes, so you'll need multiple copies)

You'll get a 10 run copy for ammo, drones and modules, and a single run for rigs and ships. (ME 2, PE 4 (iirc) )

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2014-06-18 01:33:37 UTC
Another detail,

I'm going to be using manufacturing facilities inside a POS in a wormhole. Is there a way to pay the Job Cost with my personal wallet instead of the corporation wallet? Otherwise I'll have to transfer isk to the corp - or pay a tax? O.o
tom trade valine
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#220 - 2014-06-18 02:30:40 UTC
Remote usage station changes

Another drastic change is that blueprints safely stored in a regular station can no longer be used for jobs in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to remotely start Starbase jobs from several solar systems away, but the blueprints will now have to be physically available in the structure for it to properly start.



I am not sure why this is going into effect. I can now days send info from 1 area to another and get things fixed looked at or even changed and redesigned to make it work better, without needing to send the original item to them. Somehow tho in afew thousands years after being able to do this for so long suddenly we can no longer do it and have to move the BPO to the POS. This is a bad idea and some of us have BPOs that are in lock down for reasons to keep them from being taken by corp theifs. Or some very expensive ones that we don't want moving around the systems. This is a poor change and again with the new anyone can put up a tower idea which is a slap in the face to players that did take the time to bring up rep to place a POS in high sec you might as well be spitting on your customer base again.