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Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
you're primary
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#741 - 2014-06-10 14:24:59 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Yeah, so we can model what sort of costs we can expect post-patch. Whatever it is at this moment is 'good enough' for that sort of modeling.


I've got the OK to release those numbers but the guy who has the data has gone home for the day (I only have percentages in my working sheet). I'll try and post them up tomorrow morning.

Did these get posted? I didn't see them.


Still on my to-do list, sorry about the delay.



Hey Greyscale, not to nag but we really have potentially a lot of work ahead of us. Any chance we can get these?

Edit: We can't really do much in terms of solid feedback on the numbers until we have them either.


I'm kind of waiting for these too..I get the design you intend with the job cost scaling, but to work out what it actually means in specific systems/cases and to optimise our infrastructure I'd like to have these..
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#742 - 2014-06-10 17:26:36 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Do you have any concrete numbers and formulae around POSes yet? There are a lot of old posts arount intent and comments that this or the other are 'interesting' but I've seen nothing concrete to date. Given the projected SiSi release on the 10th, I'm hoping you have something and are simply too busy to post, but by the same token, I find the idea of reverse engineering what you have in front of you highly annoying.


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#743 - 2014-06-10 17:41:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)

The only thing I can think of regarding online/offline shenanigans is that if offline structures count, the optimal starbase to conduct RAM at will always be a small, since you can anchor a number of offline modules far afield of what that tower could normally hold, assuming the maximum benefit is calculated for a large tower.

If the maximum benefit is calculated per tower, depending on the size, then this is a non-concern. I suppose it might let you, e.g., online one each of lab and assembly array, then anchor enough offline ones to confer the maximum cost reduction for both activities, but in that case the penalty for having to do all that green boxing far outstrips the potential monetary gain. :V

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#744 - 2014-06-10 19:13:25 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)

The only thing I can think of regarding online/offline shenanigans is that if offline structures count, the optimal starbase to conduct RAM at will always be a small, since you can anchor a number of offline modules far afield of what that tower could normally hold, assuming the maximum benefit is calculated for a large tower.

If the maximum benefit is calculated per tower, depending on the size, then this is a non-concern. I suppose it might let you, e.g., online one each of lab and assembly array, then anchor enough offline ones to confer the maximum cost reduction for both activities, but in that case the penalty for having to do all that green boxing far outstrips the potential monetary gain. :V


You actually need to have them online at some point to start a job and get benefit from them, but yeah, You can just slap max of each needed type of industrial facility and swap them as needed and turn off all except the one that have the job running after starting said job
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#745 - 2014-06-10 20:27:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.


Er. Not that I wouldn't absolutely love for things to stay this way, but it is pretty game-breaking. A dozen of online arrays means you can barely have any hardeners or guns online. Similarly, a dozen of online arrays means you can't have a dozen of a different type of array also onlined.

Letting bonuses apply from offline structures means being able to just stick 40bil of arrays onto a single Minnie tower, offlining all but one of each kind, proceeding to online a mass of guns and hardeners, and still getting full bonuses for everything. I definitely wouldn't complain if you allowed that, but I also wouldn't consider it very fair to other players.
Circumstantial Evidence
#746 - 2014-06-10 22:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
probag Bear wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.
Er. Not that I wouldn't absolutely love for things to stay this way, but it is pretty game-breaking. A dozen of online arrays means you can barely have any hardeners or guns online. Similarly, a dozen of online arrays means you can't have a dozen of a different type of array also onlined.

Letting bonuses apply from offline structures means being able to just stick 40bil of arrays onto a single Minnie tower, offlining all but one of each kind, proceeding to online a mass of guns and hardeners, and still getting full bonuses for everything. I definitely wouldn't complain if you allowed that, but I also wouldn't consider it very fair to other players.
How does this sound: Track POS array online TIME (hourly count) per job, instead of the number of arrays. Call this online time data "build points," or "work units" (something lore friendly.) Basic arrays generate 1 unit per hour, better arrays generate 1.x. Factor these online-only work units into percentage of cost reduction, and pay on job delivery. (pro-rated job cost, if canceled before scheduled delivery.)
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#747 - 2014-06-11 02:00:37 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Thank you very much. I'm also concerned about the offline modules being counted. It seems like I could set up a single pos with a pile of offline labs, component arrays, and ship assembly arrays and crank out t2 frigs with heavy bonuses all the way through the chain, unless I'm missing something.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#748 - 2014-06-11 06:44:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Do you have any concrete numbers and formulae around POSes yet? There are a lot of old posts arount intent and comments that this or the other are 'interesting' but I've seen nothing concrete to date. Given the projected SiSi release on the 10th, I'm hoping you have something and are simply too busy to post, but by the same token, I find the idea of reverse engineering what you have in front of you highly annoying.


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)



So if I want a full effect for lets say t3 production I need 13 or 14 for a full bonus?
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#749 - 2014-06-11 07:06:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Hey I'm sorry to put it like that, but stacking a massive amount of offline structures inside a POS just to have the max bonus, seems like a very bad mecanic.

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Skalle Pande
Teknisk Forlag
#750 - 2014-06-11 11:20:17 UTC
Altrue wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Hey I'm sorry to put it like that, but stacking a massive amount of offline structures inside a POS just to have the max bonus, seems like a very bad mecanic.

Agreeing with that. Why on Earth (oops, why in space) should offlined, inactive modules carry benefits? Will offline POS shield hardeners also still provide their bonus? Can you shoot with offline guns? Nah. Bad idea.

I would much prefer a larger bonus per online facility (like, for labs, as many percentage points as they have slots of different types now), and then perhaps a cap on how many modules of a given type you can hang on a small/medium/large tower. That way, you could still have versatility and protection if you so choose, or you could max your percentage bonus up to a limit for a select few types of operation. But bonuses for offline modules - simply a sillly proposition, IMHO.
Skalle Pande
Teknisk Forlag
#751 - 2014-06-11 11:30:39 UTC
Or, perhaps add a feature like the PI command center upgrade option, giving you the option of upgrading a specific module to give better bonus, for a (steeply) growing cost per improvement step. And of course, lost when the module is offlined or destructed. That would make much better sense than just stacking identical modules, even if the offline sillyness was weeded out.

If you would like improvements to be player produced (like a stack of 15 identical modules), you could make those improvements come in the form of rigs for POS modules. That would make even more sense. But I don't know if that is an option codewise.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#752 - 2014-06-11 19:17:12 UTC
Skalle Pande wrote:

I would much prefer a larger bonus per online facility (like, for labs, as many percentage points as they have slots of different types now), and then perhaps a cap on how many modules of a given type you can hang on a small/medium/large tower. That way, you could still have versatility and protection if you so choose, or you could max your percentage bonus up to a limit for a select few types of operation. But bonuses for offline modules - simply a sillly proposition, IMHO.


The cap is already there in the CPU and powergrid of the tower. I'd not like people being prevented from setting up defenceless towers in pursuit of profit.

I completely agree that it should only count online modules, but that begs the question: online when? Only when the job is installed? Then people will run around swizzling what's online as the proceed through their production cycles. Should the modules be locked in an online state until the job completes? That sounds like some major coding in a subsystem that's been widely publicized as being pretty hairy already, although there might be an elegant solution in there. Should costs adjust whenever you offline a module? More weird code, plus the problem of where to get the money from...

Having said all that, I earnestly hope that CCP will find the time and technique to eliminate or reduce the offline shenanigans.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#753 - 2014-06-11 22:26:28 UTC
Personally, I no longer place a high priority on getting multiple starbase arrays to provide any bonus come Crius, as opposed to at some later date. I've found other ways of gaming that system, although they are a bit cumbersome. I doubt I reflect the opinion of most POS manufacturers on this one though.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#754 - 2014-06-12 21:07:03 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


You can do it, I believe in you.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#755 - 2014-06-13 14:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Maenth
About the structures giving a cost reduction, potential for abuse... I think the relevant solution should be simple... while jobs in structure type X are in progress, putting one of those structures offline will turn them all offline, and putting one back online will turn them all back on.

It's still ugly, I know... due to this sort of mutual shared bonus/function maybe some day the structures can be arranged into groups? Then they use as groups..


At any rate, I think the material bonus is weird as an advantage of multiple structures... however, if it were a time bonus (maybe just a little bit of a material bonus) that I think would make more sense as you could say that all of the structures are doing some part of the project in parallel, and then the manufacturers running POS's get their advantage in production volume and/or being able to get their product to market sooner where they see a profit to be made, instead of days later when the margin worth rushing for is already gone.

Also, with those cost reductions, any single corp could choose a product type to dominate, get max bonus for that type, and then win that market by having very large volume potential and also the lower prices to be able to undercut anybody all the time...


Well before I babble any more I'm going to call this post done xD hope it was good for thinking exercizes
*reluctantly gets back to work while at work*

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

Christopher Tsutola
State Navy
#756 - 2014-06-14 19:10:08 UTC
How about upgrade modules that increase the cpu and powergrid of an array that can't be offlined if the array is online this gets rid of the offlining problem and doesn't cause a POS to be filled with a bunch of the same arrays just to use one.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#757 - 2014-06-15 17:00:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Do you have any concrete numbers and formulae around POSes yet? There are a lot of old posts arount intent and comments that this or the other are 'interesting' but I've seen nothing concrete to date. Given the projected SiSi release on the 10th, I'm hoping you have something and are simply too busy to post, but by the same token, I find the idea of reverse engineering what you have in front of you highly annoying.


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


I just followed the news link to this post. We are lucky that facility is available otherwise important info like this would just get lost and most people wouldn't know about it.

First of all people are referencing your post regarding the implied ability to online X amount of exact same arrays to gain bonuses then offline all but the array where the job/s is/are set up. Your post doesn't specifically state that this is possible or allowed but then quips that it could be possible but it might not be a problem. Roll If all this is possible and allowed would it also be possible to unanchor the excess number of arrays used to attain the bonuses received and remove them from the POS while still continuing to receive the bonuses Question A massive loophole in the making.

The above paragraph points out what a car crash of a system you have designed and are seriously considering putting into place. I bet ten quid you haven't realised the above yet either Attention If you are still going ahead with this multiple array bonus scheme I suggest you amend it so that ALL the arrays involved in attaining the bonus have to remain online until job completion.

Secondly my suggestion of issuing skillbooks, at 10x skill training if you wish, to receive cost bonuses on jobs at POSes is a far, far better method than the multiple array method you are planning to deploy. Of course I'm not stupid and I can see your plan also connects with other issues within New Eden such as the POS fuel market, ice mining & P.I. but I still believe my idea is the better one.

"Multiple array bonus scheme"........err.......yes I know.......it reminds me of something else too. Oops

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#758 - 2014-06-15 19:30:07 UTC
*sarcasm on...

If offline additions to a station can offer a bonus, then Detroit would be a booming golden metropolis.

*sarcasm off...
Fluffy Monkei
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#759 - 2014-06-16 01:05:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:



Question for clarification. Is the "build cost bonus" a reduction in the materials needed for production (material cost reduction) or a reduction in the workforce cost?

Because really a 21% material reduction for BS at POS would be game breaking but a 21% workforce cost reduction would be cool. At one point you where talking about a 2% material cost reduction for POS manufacturing, but in most of the DEV Blogs about the new industry the "cost reductions" are talking about workforce cost reductions. It would be good to get some clarification so I know what to expect.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#760 - 2014-06-16 15:43:07 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


You can do it, I believe in you.


2536236015 total manufacturing job minutes over 28 days, assuming we've extracted the correct numbers, and with caveats that jobs starting either side of the period can spill in/out in somewhat unintuitive ways. If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.

Fluffy Monkei wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:



Question for clarification. Is the "build cost bonus" a reduction in the materials needed for production (material cost reduction) or a reduction in the workforce cost?

Because really a 21% material reduction for BS at POS would be game breaking but a 21% workforce cost reduction would be cool. At one point you where talking about a 2% material cost reduction for POS manufacturing, but in most of the DEV Blogs about the new industry the "cost reductions" are talking about workforce cost reductions. It would be good to get some clarification so I know what to expect.


Workforce cost :)