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Allow building Outposts in NPC sov and multiple Outposts in sov.

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Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1 - 2014-06-12 12:49:32 UTC
Don't you think that NPC sov is awfully static? And have you ever wondered why the hell cant you make multiple outposts in a system somewhere deep in null where you have anyway been sitting on max sov level for past year and some? So I have a proposal.

(1) Allow more than one player outpost to be built in sovereignty null. Hell while you are at it perhaps also remove restriction on where, exactly, can you install one (within reasonable limits, say not on grid with another structure or gate or such perhaps).

The question is what to do with sov mechanics. As a temporary fix just ignore any outposts after the first one in system. If the "main" Outpots flips just flip the others also in system. There is proper sov overhaul scheduled for the later anyway. Or if you want to make additional posts count just pool the hp of all outpots togehter in system and let players shoot any of them.

That would allow a proper industrial hubs for null sec alliances as they would be able to put all 4 types in the same system, several of the same type with different upgrades, etc. In addition you could use the bonuses provided by the industry overhaul which made stuff go faster the more "installations" of certain type you have in system.

(2) Allow players to build outposts in NPC sov (hi sec, low sec, npc null, etc). With certain limitations in place.

(a) Add a penalty to slot effectivity in NPC sov. These Outpots are not conquerable (for now under current system) so they should not be as good as the ones that can be con quested. (you can explain it as NPC factions following stricter policies or whatever).
(b) At next DT (or a little time after getting the post up and functional) the ownership of the Outpost would flip to the NPC faction holding sov in the system. Optionally let the cocporation that holds the Outpost (until it flips) designate a specific member corporation of the faction that holds sov to whom the Outpost goes.
(c) It should be possible to somehow still upgrade the outposts of the correct type. Optionally one could introduce a different outpost type for NPC sov.
(d) Perhaps require a huge pile of starbase charters as part of materials for throwing up the egg in NPC sov.

Risks - where are they if you are throwing up your eggs in hi sec / low sec / npc null ? - Well in low sec/ null it's obvious, as egg can be blown up. In hi sec make the egg go "suspect" when it's anchored so that anyone can shoot at it while it's going up - requiring people to defend it if they want to put one up in hi sec (might seem a bit harsh but it should balance out nice - there is no capitals / supers in hi sec however, the population of trigger happy persons is much higher). Apply standard suspect mechanics - if someone reps it he goes suspect as well - if someone shoots it he gets flagged (for the owner of the egg, or globally, whatever feels right) as well.

Why to do it, in particular the (2)? I think that the NPC spaace is somewhat .. stagnant. In sov space hundreds upon hundreds of outposts are going up but over all these years NPC factions have not erected any new outposts. And there are spots where having another NPC outpost would benefit residents - even if it's just the the barren player built type without agents n other goodies. The most obvious reason is cloning/medical in NPC null (and to some extent in low sec) as there is several outpost types lacking in that regard. Second obvious reason is alleviating the office space issues for more highly populated systems.

I would like to have cloning in 5zxx. There is some NPC null and low sec areas practically barren of stations (say, great wildlands with only couple stations for the whole region).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

De'Veldrin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-06-12 14:54:19 UTC
If you're going to leave outposts tied to sov, then a simple boolean switch added to the database would enable you to set it so only the first outpost in a system counts towards sov. The rest would just go along for the ride.

Alternatively, you could make it so ANY outpost counts, and the attacker only needs to grab one of them, which would then require spreading fleets on multiple grids.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#3 - 2014-06-12 15:12:14 UTC
1 station per system is enough, it's not like 2 enemy coalitions will let each other live in one and there is no other reason to have two.

As for NPC systems, why would you need more than 1 station at all?

YEah yeah outpost, same thing in terms of usage.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#4 - 2014-06-12 15:37:56 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
1 station per system is enough, it's not like 2 enemy coalitions will let each other live in one and there is no other reason to have two.

As for NPC systems, why would you need more than 1 station at all?

YEah yeah outpost, same thing in terms of usage.



For sov null why to have more than one - is it not obvious? Gallente one for offices/capitals, minmatar one for refining and amarr one for manufacturing. No one with few braincells to rub together builds Caldari ones as they are kickout - although if you can have several per system perhaps it would not be as dumb idea as it currently is. For .. substances.

Ofc the sov holder would hold all the stations in this sov, same as it is currently. Besides - it would go well with the backstory of empires/concord losing grip and podpilots gaining more power.

For NPC null/low - for services that are not currently available in existing stations. There is number of very popular NPC null systems with cloning several jumps away. And I am not talking in particular about the one where I am living. Some pockets in Curse, for example pop into my mind and I remember few inconvenient places in Stain as well. Then there is this low sec between Querious and Khanid that really should have one to base out of for all the people who would like to dance in there.

And it also would go well with the storyline of empires losing grip - with pod pilots throwing up stations in their own territory already. Ofc with the help of CONCORD they would be able to take em over (in empire, in null with the help of their own assault teams or whatever) - for now (until backstory indicates otherwise and all outposts become destructible - in which case goons would probably suicide gank jita 4-4 as first thing in the morning).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Bael Malefic
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-06-12 16:08:26 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Don't you think that NPC sov is awfully static? And have you ever wondered why the hell cant you make multiple outposts in a system somewhere deep in null where you have anyway been sitting on max sov level for past year and some? So I have a proposal.


Sounds like you want to turn what is left of neutral (as in NPC) nullsec into more rental space for the big coalitions as well as giving even bigger buffs to the coalitions that already dominate the game.

Carniflex wrote:
(1) Allow more than one player outpost to be built in sovereignty null. Hell while you are at it perhaps also remove restriction on where, exactly, can you install one (within reasonable limits, say not on grid with another structure or gate or such perhaps).


Why? You own the system, you don't need more than one. And you should have to make choices and trade-offs (as in the example you give about advantages of different outpost types) rather than have everything, everywhere.

By the same token, why not...I mean, if you really want to do it, why not...just seems a waste, especially as most of player owned nullsec is empty most of the time.


Carniflex wrote:
(2) Allow players to build outposts in NPC sov (hi sec, low sec, npc null, etc). With certain limitations in place.


I think this is a bad idea. NPC nullsec is there for a reason. NPC nullsec systems without any outposts are there for a reason. There need to be "badlands" in EVE that can't be owned permanently by any group.
Iain Cariaba
#6 - 2014-06-12 18:06:49 UTC
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are already too many outpost in null, imo. It's unusual that you need to fly more than 2 jumps to get to a station now, so why would you need more?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-06-12 18:28:41 UTC
Big block alt looking for more rental space detected.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-06-12 21:12:10 UTC
the only reason i would say more than one station per null sov system is because of the broken jumpclone system where you can only store one jump clone per station, fix that and its a non issue.
Iain Cariaba
#9 - 2014-06-12 21:16:56 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
the only reason i would say more than one station per null sov system is because of the broken jumpclone system where you can only store one jump clone per station, fix that and its a non issue.

JC system also not broken.

It's called having to make a choice on what implants you use and when you use them.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-06-12 21:20:25 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
the only reason i would say more than one station per null sov system is because of the broken jumpclone system where you can only store one jump clone per station, fix that and its a non issue.

JC system also not broken.

It's called having to make a choice on what implants you use and when you use them.


they increased clone numbers and decreased jump time, without increasing storage. could we get just one more jc slot per station? being able to jump to a different system without having to find a parking space for my clone because my "other" clone is already in this station would be helpful.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#11 - 2014-06-13 10:20:19 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are already too many outpost in null, imo. It's unusual that you need to fly more than 2 jumps to get to a station now, so why would you need more?


This proposal has actually potential to lower the speed at which systems gain stations in null sec. At the moment, if you need to erect a new station you do so in a new system, meaning there is one more system on starmap with a station in null.

Under this proposal the station builder has an option to put the new station in some system already containing one station. Meaning some other system, that currently does not have station does not gain a new station. So if you have issues with how many systems have a station already in null sec then this proposal should be something you like.

I mean if the system already has one station why would you care if there is N more stations in that system?

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#12 - 2014-06-13 10:37:12 UTC
Bael Malefic wrote:

Sounds like you want to turn what is left of neutral (as in NPC) nullsec into more rental space for the big coalitions as well as giving even bigger buffs to the coalitions that already dominate the game.


Why? You own the system, you don't need more than one. And you should have to make choices and trade-offs (as in the example you give about advantages of different outpost types) rather than have everything, everywhere.

By the same token, why not...I mean, if you really want to do it, why not...just seems a waste, especially as most of player owned nullsec is empty most of the time.


Carniflex wrote:
(2) Allow players to build outposts in NPC sov (hi sec, low sec, npc null, etc). With certain limitations in place.


I think this is a bad idea. NPC nullsec is there for a reason. NPC nullsec systems without any outposts are there for a reason. There need to be "badlands" in EVE that can't be owned permanently by any group.


If take a look at the proposal it is very specific in regards of NPC null. These stations would not be owned by player entities so it does nothing for "renting empires" it is not like they have been able to turn Stain or Curse into renting empires. Without the ability to control the docking rights in these stations the ability to build them in NPC sov would not change status quo in that regard at all.

As far as choice goes. I would let the residents decide what do they need or do not need. For sov null it would actually add choice as you would have to decide if you will put the new station in the system that already has an station or would add it to some other system that does not have at the moment a station. That is, in my opinion, quite meaningful decision to make.

As far as NPC null goes having a station does not allow one to "own" the system any more than not having a station in some particular system. It would be NPC station after a little while and as such anyone would be able to dock in there. Only way to "control" a system in NPC sov is to actually live in there and just kill off anyone why is stepping on your "turf" and that would remain the only viable way after this change as well.

Again - it would be up to residents to decide if it really is "worth it" to erect a station under such conditions or not. If having cloning and office space a bit closer is worth 30 bil for them well - why not. Perhaps it will mean one less supercarrier built which is also a nice little victory for EVE.

Sentamon wrote:
Big block alt looking for more rental space detected.


Really? That is the best you can come up with to shoot this idea down? If you think about it for a second you would see that this proposal would benefit the NPC sov residents a bit more than larger powerblocks. Namely it would allow smaller entities to ninja up an outpost in some NPC sov system that did not have any beforehand and harass the renting empires nearby. The more NPC sov station there is nearby the harder it is for a powerblock to "lock down" or hellcamp a system.

For the record I am at the moment not associated with any of the three coalitions holding sov in null at the moment. Over the years the goon block is the only one in which I have not been part of. I have lived in NPC null and do so at the moment (Stain, Curse, Mordus station in 5ZXX at the moment) and have been the sov holder trying to burn out the people living in NPC null nearby so I know pretty well how it looks like from both sides of fence. My low sec experience is non-existent. For me low sec is the suburb you drive through with windows up and doors locked - bad people live there.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#13 - 2014-06-14 11:14:12 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
the only reason i would say more than one station per null sov system is because of the broken jumpclone system where you can only store one jump clone per station, fix that and its a non issue.


I have to disagree with that. There is plenty of other reasons to have multiple stations in sov null in one system other than just another spot to park a jump clone.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#14 - 2014-06-14 11:24:30 UTC
Shouldn't we first create a balanced method for demolishing existing outposts before thinking about adding more that cannot be removed again?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#15 - 2014-06-14 11:30:08 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Shouldn't we first create a balanced method for demolishing existing outposts before thinking about adding more that cannot be removed again?


Possibly, but that is a far larger change than just flipping a switch allowing more than one outpost built in a system (and possible minor addendum to sov system until it gets proper overhaul) as it requires rewriting some quite deep code (if I remember dev comments about it correct from some years ago).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#16 - 2014-06-16 11:25:00 UTC
One additional possibility would be perhaps to allow disabling the station services in NPC sov as well. Either strictly for player built stations or alternatively for all stations.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Jon Lucien
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-06-16 11:33:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#18 - 2014-06-16 11:52:28 UTC
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.
De'Veldrin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-06-16 11:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.


You heard it here first folks - outpost destruction is coming, probably Soon™. if outposts are going to be destructable does that mean they'll get station guns to defend the hapless non capsuleer employees like Scotty the docking bay manager?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#20 - 2014-06-16 12:38:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.

That would be the only place where loot spew would be acceptable. Just let them drift off 50-100 m/s and last one hour or so.
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