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[Crius] Manufacturing and general UI feedback

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Author
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#141 - 2014-06-14 12:49:21 UTC
Just tried to build an Orca in a large ship assembly and getting this error:

Quote:

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (33973122, 27974130)


And yes, I did clear the cache and tried again, same result. Also, it seems that output locations are not correctly used, some of the parts I build ended up in corp divisions I did not enter. Very strange...

Another thing that bothers me is the Job cost tooltip, which is currently not very informative. Are you planning to extend it in a way as was shown in dev blog entry a while ago?
Noriko Mai
#142 - 2014-06-14 14:25:59 UTC
Stations now have a tab called "Materials"?!

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Jinn Aideron
#143 - 2014-06-14 18:42:00 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
Stations now have a tab called "Materials"?!

A lot of things have, which is pretty cool. Get a 'feel' what's in something w/o searching for their BPs in the market first. For manufacturing as well as processing. Will be interesting to see how far they take it!

Stealth deletes are bad.

Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2014-06-14 22:59:23 UTC
Haven't had time for extensive testing, but immediately got an idea for the horrible list view at the bottom:

Could you please allow us to create personal filters the same way as we can do in the regular inventory panel? Meaning a player managed list of filters that are able to access properties, locations and requirements of blueprints and capabilities and materials of the current installation. Then let us specify one filter as the default one and gone should be the loading times or hassle with thousands of list entries to be scrolled.

Examples:

  • T2 ship BPCs the character can build
  • T1 BPOs which can be build with the materials in the current source location (container/hangar)
  • T2 BPCs with a full run build time up to 3 days
  • etc... (you get the idea)


This way everybody could create for each character a specialized set of named filters to quickly (and only) see the blueprints he/she really needs.

In case you cannot free the required space in the left of that list area, simply add one button to access the filter management view and one dropdown menu to the lists header bar.

I can think of a few other solutions on how to improve that list issue, but this one might very well be one of the most flexible and user friendly ways of doing it.


Ah, and pleaseeeeee give us an option to completely disable all kinds of stupid animations in the industry panel. Blinking borders/shapes and growing ME/TE bars in a table belong in mobile phone apps or kid's games, not in an interface that is associated with usage patterns highly depending on time efficiency! Wasted developer resources imho, better to be spent on real usability improvements (like my proposal above) ;)
mynnna
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2014-06-14 23:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
A couple of things.

Soldarius wrote:
Teams:
WRT the teams, I find that the cost modifier being expressed exactly the same as the ME and TE modifiers (integer percentage) to be very confusing. +6% for the team to get a 2% efficiency increase is not intuitive. It makes it look like I'm paying 6% to get 2%, which would make no sense at all.

I know it actually means an additional 6% only on the system index cost (or something to that effect) because I read the devblog. But budding/new player industrialists won't know that and will likely just shake their head and go "wtf is this obviously broken content? Someone's an idiot." and never use teams.

A tooltip or something to clarify would help greatly in this case. (If there already is one, I don't know how I missed it.)

Seconding this very loudly. There's a lot of new complexity in industry, which is a good thing... as long as it's all very, very clear. In this case the most beneficial thing to do would be to clarify in the tooltip that salary cost is a multiplier on job install cost.

Furthering that "as long as", what is the bar on the "System Cost Index" actually showing? Is it relative cost (if so relative to what)? Actual percent cost to install? It isn't really clear, so it could do with a tooltip explaining it. The dividers or "blocks" on the bar also look uneven, not sure if that's intentional.

And then a couple of points for discoverability, leading a new player to find industry:

  • We've got this new "Materials" tab on actual items. Dunno if it's here to stay or not, but if it is, throw the blueprint for an item onto it as well. If a blueprint doesn't exist because it's only invented, indicate that too. Someone exploring the info on his ship then discovers he could build it too, and can from there either show info on the blueprint and find out how it's built, how invention works, etc. And, if it's not there to stay, add a tab with this information anyway.
  • Building just one step further on that last point, add a button to open the industry window to blueprint show info screens.
  • And finally, "Industry ISIS", in a sense. Add a tab (or add to existing tabs, whichever) for blueprints which shows what skills and items could be useful for a build or job. It already tells you you need Industry I for some Tech I item - include that there's a bonus from Material Efficiency, that Research helps you research ME faster, that Science helps you copy faster, etc, and for invention, include info that decryptors are a thing and are useful.


The idea, basically, is that the new UI does a pretty good job (at least from my jaded eye...) of explaining stuff, but it couldn't hurt if other things helped lead a player in and 'prime' them with some of what they'll need.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-06-14 23:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
General:
Noticed that stuff that cannot be reprocessed has reprocess in select/dropdown menu, stuff like tags civi ships that are currently thrash only.

would like to see every station with base 33% efficiency with standings raising it to the 50 (or 53) % level at 10 standing (+2 per lvl) with scrap metal processing being added on top, standing have to have more impact than just tax costs.

Manu UI:
Selection of location to current station does not stick, u change station and it remains at the station you just left not the current station u arrived at as in present system

A clear all button would be useful or the ability to drag out the BP to a can/station items/inventory/cargohold (possible on LH of industry icons under roundel, could move the start button in to balance) so you get an empty interface the same as when you start a job

invention does not always recalculate when u change decryptor, may be a refresh function button, u start in this state and only once the job is started does the stat change

can we have a confirm/cancel function after the start button process as we have at present as its a good saftey measure that saves a lot of grief

You can use BP´s from inside cans, but materials that are in cans cannot be utilized, this is an inconsistency. If you allow one the other should be also enabled. (lots of ppl keep salvage, descriptors etc in cans for space reasons)


more l8r

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#147 - 2014-06-15 05:59:05 UTC
The fact that new players can't find the areas where different ores are found without going to the Wiki (where it is hard to find) or the internet is still a big stumbling point in the industrial knowledge chain.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Sales Alt negrodamus
SalesAltCorp
#148 - 2014-06-15 08:35:42 UTC
I agree with everything mynnnnnna has said.

Building on UI issues:

While it now makes sense what the green plus on a facility's activitys means, it is pretty subtle. I feel that it would help if it were made more visually distinctive that a given faculty is a good choice to use / has bonuses.

Now that invention finally works (at least on my preferred products) I've noticed a UI "glitch" with decryptor selection.

When you click on the decryptor you want to use, you get the UI feedback that the decryptor is selected. But it isn't actually selected until you click it twice. I was very confused as to what was going on with that until for awhile. This is something I feel needs streamlining, eg "click once and it is selected".

With job payments, I'm feeling that its' a little goofy in function at the moment.

Currently, when I pay for a job on TQ it comes out of my personal wallet. Now, isk is coming out of whatever my active corp wallet division is. Now it might be a failing of my organizational skills but I don't really use corp wallets for my industry so that was a bit of a surprise.

I think some more visibility on where the isk to pay for the job is being sourced from would be helpful, and perhaps the choice to pull it out of personal wallets.

We also really really need a better sorting functionality with the interfaces. I would really like to be able to sort based on blueprint criteria, faculty criteria, or team criteria. Because its' a scrollfest with all three right now, and that sucks to do.

UI bug maybe on this?

For example, I have a small trimark armor blueprint. I want to do some ME research. It shows a duration and a cost, which is expected. Whether the tax is anywhere near realistic or not is another question, but it shows something.

Now I throw in an erebus bpo just for ***** and grins and look at the cost of ME research, it shows a "slightly" higher time but zero cost. Methinks that's a bug.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#149 - 2014-06-15 10:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
The Indu window seems to be a bit slow, or lacks a Refresh button.

I tried to copy some stuff and use different hangars for the BPs and the materials (same for Invention). Now, in the BP hangar there is obviously no Datasheets and other stuff available for copying and therefor the Indu window tells me that I cannot copy or invent. When I switch the hangar to the respective material hangar, the window then still shows me that I lack the materials but when I click on [Start], the process initiates. That is a little bit confusing.

--

With regards to the Teams Tab: Would it be possible to be able to search/filter for specific regions. The point is that, if I am in, for instance, Khanid or in Molden Heath looking for a Caldari or Gallente Team, I ffind the World option too inclusive and going there is a bit time intensive. The Types filter is a bit helpful, however, there I look up all $RandomType§ teams of all races, which limits the choice a little bit but still is too inclusive. The ability to look up teams of a specific Region (or Empire, which I would prefer even more) would be of great help here.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Alain Kinsella
#150 - 2014-06-15 10:51:35 UTC
Will also second Mynnna's points. In addition:

-> Need a 'reset' button of some sort on the main screen. After several minutes of toying, swapping and jiggering in the panel I've got all sorts of nutty settings that aren't easy to reset. Perhaps add a 'red X' to the blueprint in the middle, like you do with the team slot? Right now the best way to do this is just to close and re-open the Indy panel, which seems unintuitive.

-> I am unable to withdraw a bid on a team - or at least not in any way that I can find. I grabbed the wrong team at first, which is fine for when we're all starting out, but if the bid is for some significant sum you're going to get inundated with Support tickets down the line.

-> Took a quick peek at the new PI panel. Need to play with it more on the PI character, but looks like a good replacement. Its name feels off, but TBH I can't think of a better one anyway.

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#151 - 2014-06-15 12:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Alain Kinsella wrote:

-> Took a quick peek at the new PI panel. Need to play with it more on the PI character, but looks like a good replacement. Its name feels off, but TBH I can't think of a better one anyway.


I am not a fan of that. PI is industry and should be in the industry window... now I need another button in the NeoCom bar to access industry-related features.

Also, it is a lot harder to discern in which tab you are at a glance. Especially on bright planets, such as Ice, Gas, some Storm, the indicator is too faint. The current indicator on TQ is also not exactly an example for perfect indication; however, the entire box of the active tab is white, therefor has a stark-ish contrast to the darker inactive tab, and you know that the active tab has to be white. If this should change, make the indicator at least easier discernible.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2014-06-15 12:52:26 UTC
Oh, and what I just now realized again and what I absolutely need is the option ALL in the Owned by me/my corp. I do corp jobs and personal jobs all the time and I don't want to switch around these two options, I want to see ALL my jobs at a glance. It's frustrating that your view gets reset with every session change and on TQ I have it often that I do something in "Owned by me", jump a gate, and the indu window resets to "Owned by my corp".

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#153 - 2014-06-15 13:00:42 UTC
Looks like PI is using A/B testing. We need screen shots.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#154 - 2014-06-15 20:11:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Selaria Unbertable
Another short test on Sisi revealed a bug with the output location in POS arrays (and possibly stations as well). Everything is routed to the first corporation division, no matter what division you select, for manufacturing as well as research.

Oh, and the ui still does not remember any previously used divisions when running similar jobs (e.g. invention), which kind of defeats the purpose of less clicking, more doing other things Cry
Veldar Reku
Wu Xi Holdings
#155 - 2014-06-15 21:21:40 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Memory for input output locations.


It does this, but on a per-type and facility basis. So manufacturing blueprint X at facility Y will remember your input / output locations.



I'm sorry, but that behaviour is not very useful. Input/Output granularity should be at most per facility. Or perhaps per activity and facility but everything more specific is not very useful. More ideally, it could be configurable with menufacturing specific option window,

Remember I/O locations per,

  • type <-- this could probably not even exist
  • activity and facility
  • facility
  • one setting for everything


Per Type doesn't even work anyway. If I have 3 blueprints of same invented item (say DC II), each copy defaults to first hangar irrespective of choices for previous blueprint.

Currently, it the settings is global, which is actually more useful than current Sisi version.

Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2014-06-15 21:28:51 UTC
When doing the team chartering thing, there is no reason to have the upper third of the window filled with empty grey (happens when no BPC/BPO is selected). Please allow the team view to be maximized. Given the number of teams, that will obviously be very useful to not to have to scroll all over the place.

Also, even allowing teams to be put into that box above when they are not in the same system is unnecessarily confusing.

Qoi
Exert Force
#157 - 2014-06-15 22:16:41 UTC
The Industry Interface has some nice and logical structure to it, input materials are on the left, the blueprint characterising the manufacturing process is the center and the output is shown on the right.

However the drop down menu for selecting the input location is on the right side next to the output. It should be on the left side, next to the input materials!

http://eve-industry.org

Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#158 - 2014-06-16 00:04:36 UTC
Qoi wrote:
The Industry Interface has some nice and logical structure to it, input materials are on the left, the blueprint characterising the manufacturing process is the center and the output is shown on the right.

However the drop down menu for selecting the input location is on the right side next to the output. It should be on the left side, next to the input materials!


Not a bad idea. If you put the input selection below the materials tab, you have a nice flow starting on the left, where you select your input, then the center of the window with the runs and the output on the right. Sounds good to me, and the input selection is no longer alone in the far upper right corner of the window.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#159 - 2014-06-16 03:50:17 UTC
there should be a way to collapse the whole top section of the build industry window for easy browsing through the blueprint table. I don't have many blueprints and i already wanted to increase the height of the table for more comfortable browsing.

I got excited as i found a little arrow button on the bottom right but it removes the table instead of collapsing the top section Cry

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC
#160 - 2014-06-16 09:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Droidyk
Selaria Unbertable wrote:
Qoi wrote:
The Industry Interface has some nice and logical structure to it, input materials are on the left, the blueprint characterising the manufacturing process is the center and the output is shown on the right.

However the drop down menu for selecting the input location is on the right side next to the output. It should be on the left side, next to the input materials!


Not a bad idea. If you put the input selection below the materials tab, you have a nice flow starting on the left, where you select your input, then the center of the window with the runs and the output on the right. Sounds good to me, and the input selection is no longer alone in the far upper right corner of the window.


That would ruin the look of the window, I like the overall arrangement, it makes sense that input and output is both on the same side. And I don't want to mess with the material section I want to see clearly what are all the materials, plus you got all kinds of types of materials it would then make them too small and narrow, and wouldn't probably work as the material section needs to be flexible for all the different types.