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Re-thinking the concept of warping - Why the need to lock?

Author
Tiregn
Anvil Capital Trading
#1 - 2011-12-03 04:39:36 UTC
Alrighty,

So I was reading this topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40882&find=unread about how the author loves the oriented stargates (Which is awesome btw). I thought it was a great idea, it would definitely add some realism to the game. I mean seriously, how come you never end up somewhere upside-down? Why are Stations/POS' etc always right side up. That's just not realistic.

However, I then read the comment about 'This would mess up a lot of players bookmarks'. Now of course I laugh and say 'boo hoo' people can re-bookmark things.

Then of course, it was either sheer genius, or the alcohol speaking, but I thought, whats to prevent people from warping anyways?

Currently - You must lock on to a target (bookmark, celestial, stargate, etc) in system to be able to warp.

I say "Why?"

Why can't you just engage the warp drive? This is more of a discussion thread on your thoughts on this, not necessarily the reality of it. I'm not sure that there exists an engine out there that could handle this.

But do you think, if it was doable, it would be a good thing? Sure you could end up in the sun, or the middle of a planet, etc. But that's why locking on to a target is the preferred way. But should it be the ONLY way?


(We're not even going to visit the other aspects of warp that annoy me - Can't warp to an enemy ship that you can see and plot a course to when on grid - being able to detect a stargate across the system and warp to that, but you can't even detect an enemy ship half that distance - and others that I'm too drunk to put down).
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#2 - 2011-12-03 04:58:46 UTC
I love the idea. thought of it years ago, but there is one reason why i never mentioned anything...

if you allow people to just ingage warp, all the pvpers, gankers, and pirates would never forgive it. imagine bein in a ship (anywhere; flying in hi/low/null, minig or hauling)and you see enemys show up, rather than have to align to a base and warp to safety, you just hit (warp that direction), and your off instintally. too many people base their game play off using their little scram ships to prevent this then having the time of there life with the poor stranded victim.

It does just make sense though if you think about it. you fly an intersteller space ship, you should be able to go anywhere. when you log off your ship goes to a random pocket of space until you sign back in. why couldnt we allow a pilot to manually do the same thing while logged on? one side effect may be that there would need to be some change to probes, or really, just that everybody would start using probes to find random people in random places.

over all, its probly not gonna happen. and if so, years away..

(a solution to help slow the process down, would be that your ship still has to throttle up to almost full speed before warp is engaged, so it would only be minorly faster than aligning first)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#3 - 2011-12-03 05:43:18 UTC
Bearilian wrote:
I love the idea. thought of it years ago, but there is one reason why i never mentioned anything...

if you allow people to just ingage warp, all the pvpers, gankers, and pirates would never forgive it. imagine bein in a ship (anywhere; flying in hi/low/null, minig or hauling)and you see enemys show up, rather than have to align to a base and warp to safety, you just hit (warp that direction), and your off instintally. too many people base their game play off using their little scram ships to prevent this then having the time of there life with the poor stranded victim.

nothing what you couldn't balance. just add a delay to it to spin up the warp drive (time = align time).
effect:
- same as before if you start from 0m/s
- you will have to spin it up even when aligned but can't change direction when activated
- instant warp when aligned+spinned up warp drive, same as before


real game mechanics problems are rather:
- where/how to stop?
- limits etc

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-12-05 19:27:21 UTC
Bearilian wrote:
I love the idea. thought of it years ago, but there is one reason why i never mentioned anything...

if you allow people to just ingage warp, all the pvpers, gankers, and pirates would never forgive it. imagine bein in a ship (anywhere; flying in hi/low/null, minig or hauling)and you see enemys show up, rather than have to align to a base and warp to safety, you just hit (warp that direction), and your off instintally. too many people base their game play off using their little scram ships to prevent this then having the time of there life with the poor stranded victim.

It does just make sense though if you think about it. you fly an intersteller space ship, you should be able to go anywhere. when you log off your ship goes to a random pocket of space until you sign back in. why couldnt we allow a pilot to manually do the same thing while logged on? one side effect may be that there would need to be some change to probes, or really, just that everybody would start using probes to find random people in random places.

over all, its probly not gonna happen. and if so, years away..

(a solution to help slow the process down, would be that your ship still has to throttle up to almost full speed before warp is engaged, so it would only be minorly faster than aligning first)


Simple solution - make it take a few seconds for the "computer to scan the course ahead to ensure you don't warp smack into an asteroid/planet/star/ship/stargate/etc"

:D
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-05 20:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aqriue
Pre-determined points of warp is the only way CCP is able to give a sense of space and to implement a clashing of players, otherwise you just out run the other guy and there wouldn't be any fighting. Now if you want an open feeling, go google Infinity: Quest for Earth which is an MMO in vaporware stage which may never see a production (basicly 1 guy as an indepentent developer doing all the work Ugh) but their concepts of space travel, chasing the target, and avoidance just sound awesome. I like their concepts of how they would implement a lot of things I wish EVE had.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2011-12-05 20:31:27 UTC

The current warp mechanics place heavy restrictions on the locations of pilots. It makes it much easier for space ships to find each other, and limits the "safe" areas of the game.

If you could just hit warp, creating deep safes becomes very trivial (not to mention unnecessary).

Also, if you can just hit warp in some random direction, then there needs to be a "stop warp" function. Now you just severely limited the effectiveness of bubble camps, as people can stop warp when they see a bubble on scan.

How do you hunt a target that just warps???? There becomes a lot of difficulties and problems with this!!!!
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#7 - 2011-12-05 21:58:15 UTC
I have to agree that this is a bad idea because of gameplay considerations. Lore, common sense, etc, would make us believe that this makes sense. However, this is an MMO at the end of the day, and if you never encounter other ships, you might as well be playing offline. In this particular case, gameplay most definately trumps the other concerns.
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#8 - 2011-12-06 05:52:51 UTC
see what i mean. there would be countless more agruments against this change.

for such a thing to work, eve travel would have to be greatly changed on a globals scale. as well as tracking other players. making chasing someone into empty space possible outside of using probes. it would be cool if something like this was implemented, you could have a chase function. lock on to someones warp signiture and follow their path. stuff like that.

I know this is a game refference, but as far as non player controlled stearing games go, homeworld had a good system. something along the lines of opening up your local map overlay, then seting a destination in space. as well as the radar strength idea. if they arewithin the ships radar range, they show up on map. so if someone were to warp off randomly you could track them for a good bit.
combat tactics would still be hard to manage, cause it would still all be cat and mouse, and i bet the majority of eve'ers would not like that. (and tell you to play other games, but seriously, we are posting on this sight because we are EVE'ers) Bear
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#9 - 2011-12-06 13:27:48 UTC
Kittamaru wrote:
Simple solution - make it take a few seconds for the "computer to scan the course ahead to ensure you don't warp smack into an asteroid/planet/star/ship/stargate/etc"
Except that that is already covered in the lore. In warp your ship has 0 mass, thus passes safely through anything. Good idea otherwise.

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka

Gereon Brika
Gereon Enterprise
#10 - 2011-12-06 13:35:25 UTC
Nice idea, i like it.

Maybe you should get a prompt when hitting warp like that in regards to how many AU you want to warp for?
And ofcourse it should take about the same time as aligning and than warping.
Nullam
Division of Space Monsters
R.E.V.O.L.U.T.I.O.N
#11 - 2011-12-06 16:58:50 UTC
Forget missions...what if you did a random warp and...

WHAM JAM! Popped into the middle of a clusterfunk of Serpentis rats? BAM! Lay some poundage down!
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-12-06 18:38:10 UTC
In terms of the OP, the reason this could not work is that the current game mechanics make it so that you aim for B from A and it shoots you in that direction as long as capacitor is full enough, otherwise you land at point C, along a line between the two. This works much like scientists speculate RL warp drive would work, where you ship makes a wormhole through the fabric of space to get to the final destination more quickly. The only way something like this would be able to work is if you do as someone said and open up your map and say “go here”, but that would be somewhat tedious, also the same effect can be accomplished by just activating and canceling warp a couple times and then going.

Nullam wrote:
Forget missions...what if you did a random warp and...

WHAM JAM! Popped into the middle of a clusterfunk of Serpentis rats? BAM! Lay some poundage down!


Now THIS is the reason I posted in the first place… I think it is an incredibly fun idea… to make it so that between certain lines or warp, there are NPC camps that can pull you out of warp and start attacking you. It would pull you out of warp similar to a warp bubble and then the bubble would dissipate (or not, if it happens to be in null sec). It would open up a new kind of ratting and depending how it was implemented would give a interesting “crap-my-pants” feature for people traveling gate to gate or whatever…
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2011-12-06 19:32:13 UTC
mnybag1 wrote:

Now THIS is the reason I posted in the first place… I think it is an incredibly fun idea… to make it so that between certain lines or warp, there are NPC camps that can pull you out of warp and start attacking you. It would pull you out of warp similar to a warp bubble and then the bubble would dissipate (or not, if it happens to be in null sec). It would open up a new kind of ratting and depending how it was implemented would give a interesting “crap-my-pants” feature for people traveling gate to gate or whatever…


That kind of reminds me of Freelancer -- if you were in the "warp highways" (or whatever), there was a chance that the NPCs could pull you from them...

made you absolutely sh** yourself if you were flying to somewhere with only a few percent hull...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#14 - 2011-12-06 20:30:14 UTC
well. i don't really get the arguments which state that if it would be implemented you wouldn't meet players anymore.

in fact i even don't see any difference to current Eve (regarding the probability to meet players). You can save locations while in warp... etc. The "bottlenecks" will still remain: gates, stations, WHs... You don't meet players in-between those bottlenecks anyway in current Eve (without combat probes at least) - nothing would change if implemented correctly.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value