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Question for Devs: Why doesn't RR flag for aggression?
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Dubs Checkem
Discerning Individuals
#1 - 2011-12-05 18:30:13 UTC
I'm just wondering if there is a legitimate explanation for this. I'd certainly be open to one. From what I can tell, this feature is predominantly used exploitatively. Does anyone know why this is designed in this way?

It seems to me that it would be extremely easy to change, so this would imply to me that it is working as intended...
Indeterminacy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-12-05 18:31:49 UTC
Dubs Checkem wrote:
I'm just wondering if there is a legitimate explanation for this. I'd certainly be open to one. From what I can tell, this feature is predominantly used exploitatively. Does anyone know why this is designed in this way?

It seems to me that it would be extremely easy to change, so this would imply to me that it is working as intended...


Because it doesn't. Not an exploit, working as intended.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#3 - 2011-12-05 18:35:18 UTC
No, it is not working as intended despite what you wish for, Indeterminacy. CCP will fix it soon.

@Dubs, perhaps check this thread as well, it was posted before yours and has quite a few more posts in it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42420&find=unread

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4 - 2011-12-05 18:40:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Nothing related to aggression appears to be easy to change, every time a relatively minor change gets made bizarre things end up happening. Doing some testing with remtoe sensor boosters a corpmate found that since the introduction of the new aggression warning it can take several minutes for someone rendering remote assistance to actually get their aggression timer and that after they do get their time fairly often that timer would refresh infitely and stay at about 14 minutes even while the person is docked.

If a logistics ship is just not ever turning red for some reason blame incursions.
Dubs Checkem
Discerning Individuals
#5 - 2011-12-05 18:46:07 UTC
Indeterminacy wrote:
Dubs Checkem wrote:
I'm just wondering if there is a legitimate explanation for this. I'd certainly be open to one. From what I can tell, this feature is predominantly used exploitatively. Does anyone know why this is designed in this way?

It seems to me that it would be extremely easy to change, so this would imply to me that it is working as intended...


Because it doesn't. Not an exploit, working as intended.


I'd actually be fine with this, I'd just like to understand why that would be the case? I mean I know its fun to just be terse to people online for no reason...

Ah thanks Thorn! I'll just read that thread. Has anyone offered any good reason why it would be designed that way?
SmashTech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-12-05 18:48:59 UTC
If launching an interdictor bubble gives you gate/station aggro, then remote repairing should too.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#7 - 2011-12-05 18:50:47 UTC
Your first post isn't particularly clear. Do you mean that an RR ship isn't going red so you can shoot at it or that it is able to dock and jump while it has aggression?

If it is the former then it's a bug and you should petittion it, if the later then it is designed that way.
Dubs Checkem
Discerning Individuals
#8 - 2011-12-05 19:04:03 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Your first post isn't particularly clear. Do you mean that an RR ship isn't going red so you can shoot at it or that it is able to dock and jump while it has aggression?

If it is the former then it's a bug and you should petittion it, if the later then it is designed that way.


The first example is how it used to work, if I understand correctly. I posted this topic because I was expecting them to change it with Crucible and I didn't see anything about it in the patch notes. Perhaps I just overlooked it.

So now I understand (thanks for clarifying btw) that the RR ship now gets flagged for combat, but unlike other ships that assist someone in combat, they are able to jump/dock at will.

Is there a reason that they get this special treatment, or is this just something the Dev's forgot to change when they made the other adjustment?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2011-12-05 19:09:53 UTC

I'm pretty sure the op is complaining because Logistics Ships do NOT get the 60 second Combat Aggression timer that prevents a ship from docking or jumping through a gate.

And here's your answer:

This would be a huge nerf to logistics pilots.

Is it implementable in a reasonable manner?
--- The only fair way to implement this, is to transfer the timer in its current state to the logistics ship. For example, Johnney hasn't aggressed for 20s, but still has 40s to go before he can go through the gate. If a logi reps him, it would be fair for the logi pilot to get a combat aggression timer with 40 s remaining on it. If the logi pilot got a full new timer, then logistics could never deaggress from a fight while repping, and all logistics would become stuck in fleet engagements (which would be a devastating nerf to logistics). I don't think CCP has the ability to transfer timers like this, and hence it has not been implemented.

Do you have options?
--- Don't fight on stations.... Don't fight on gates.... If you fight on a gate, station 2-3 ships on the other side to gank any logies trying to escape... EWAR out logies so you don't waste firepower on them. Essentially, you have options, use them!!!
Dubs Checkem
Discerning Individuals
#10 - 2011-12-05 19:13:34 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I'm pretty sure the op is complaining because Logistics Ships do NOT get the 60 second Combat Aggression timer that prevents a ship from docking or jumping through a gate.

And here's your answer:

This would be a huge nerf to logistics pilots.

Is it implementable in a reasonable manner?
--- The only fair way to implement this, is to transfer the timer in its current state to the logistics ship. For example, Johnney hasn't aggressed for 20s, but still has 40s to go before he can go through the gate. If a logi reps him, it would be fair for the logi pilot to get a combat aggression timer with 40 s remaining on it. If the logi pilot got a full new timer, then logistics could never deaggress from a fight while repping, and all logistics would become stuck in fleet engagements (which would be a devastating nerf to logistics). I don't think CCP has the ability to transfer timers like this, and hence it has not been implemented.

Do you have options?
--- Don't fight on stations.... Don't fight on gates.... If you fight on a gate, station 2-3 ships on the other side to gank any logies trying to escape... EWAR out logies so you don't waste firepower on them. Essentially, you have options, use them!!!


I see what you mean. I don't regularly run into this as a problem, and if there is a good reason for the mechanic to be the way it is, I don't mind it. I just am wondering why the inconsistency is there.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2011-12-05 19:13:59 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Do you have options?

--- Don't Logi on the undock of stations.... Don't sit on gates.... If you logi on a gate, station keep away from tackle so you can escape... Keep Logies out of range so they can not be hit. Essentially, you have options, use them!!!

Fixed the last part of your post to invalidate the first part.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#12 - 2011-12-05 19:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Dubs Checkem wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Your first post isn't particularly clear. Do you mean that an RR ship isn't going red so you can shoot at it or that it is able to dock and jump while it has aggression?

If it is the former then it's a bug and you should petittion it, if the later then it is designed that way.


The first example is how it used to work, if I understand correctly. I posted this topic because I was expecting them to change it with Crucible and I didn't see anything about it in the patch notes. Perhaps I just overlooked it.

So now I understand (thanks for clarifying btw) that the RR ship now gets flagged for combat, but unlike other ships that assist someone in combat, they are able to jump/dock at will.

Is there a reason that they get this special treatment, or is this just something the Dev's forgot to change when they made the other adjustment?


You get the 60 second timer for "Attacking" someone with an attack module. Assisting someone via Armor/Shield reps or projected ECCM/Remote Sensor boosters is not a direct attack on another person. So aggression but no timer. At least I assume that is the rationale.

Which is why I think it's stupid for interdictor to get timers for launching bubbles even if they don't actually hit anything. I could see an argument for getting a timer for bubbling on a gate or a station, or even bubbling your own fleet (you'd get a timer for hitting your fleet with a smartbomb) but as it is it's dumb.