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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Undo FW station docking rights in opposing systems

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Claud Tiberius
#41 - 2014-06-13 10:51:21 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Docking rights make no real difference tbh. Anything stuck inside flipped stations can be contracted to neutral alts and taken away. It is only a very small incovenience with little practical implications.



This except I would say its a bigger inconvenience.

Docking rights add an inconvenience to participating in fw. That is all it is.

You want to pvp? Well you have to travel several jumps to get to then enemy and several more back if you need to reship or even repair.

You want to base in a fw system? You have to get an alt account to sit in an empty frigate (save the stabs) and dplex..

Plus this:
ShahFluffers wrote:


Personally? I would just like to see docking restrictions lifted. Yes, from a lore/RP point-of-view it makes sense. Yes, it also does make some groups work together more closely than they would like.
But it also prevents people from spreading out within the warzone because no one group can stay online all the time to keep their system from being farmed to vulnerable and captured.
This in turn creates "bunker" systems that are nigh impregnable while everything else remains more or less undefended... or groups live just outside the warzone to avoid the lockouts altogether... or people just leave FW and become full pirates because well, having where you can and cannot dock because some people did more PvE than you leaves a bad taste in your mouth and is not the reason you joined the militia in the first place.

It is like 0.0 SOV being decided by how much ratting, anomalies, and mining your alliance does over the others... with ship on ship combat being completely unnecessary or even being discouraged (because you are not ratting, running anomalies, or mining to keep SOV).



Really I still don't see how it makes sense that my own militia won't let me dock in its stations, but whatever.

One word.

Logistics.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-06-13 11:01:40 UTC
I'm 'young' so I only experienced the current system. I think it's great.

Defending a home system is the most compelling reason to fight. Both for practical reasons and for very real 'human nature' reasons - sure it's just a game but 'fight for our homeland' rings in anybody's heart.

Logistics win wars. Having a station in-system rather than in the next-door system rather than just a staging POS makes a huge difference. Makes the pew pew more strategical.

Everyone can feel the pain regarding fending off annoying farmer hoards in your system, but that's a reason to nerf farming, not to make the colors on the warzone map meaningless. Kronos seems like a good step in the right direction, timer rollbacks would be the icing on the cake.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Irya Boone
The Scope
#43 - 2014-06-13 11:03:34 UTC
Really I still don't see how it makes sense that my own militia won't let me dock in its stations, but whatever.

I couldn't be more agree than that considering in high sec a gallente militian can dock in jita .. with no problem at all ..

But it's why i want some neutrals corp owning FW stations in the warzone ( like pirates ones, SOe etc etc ) and keep the restrictions as it is . OR

make the station Ownership change after 7 DT
if the system is under gallente occupancy after 7Dt then the Federation customs or federation Navy ( whatever gallente corp) take ownership and put its own agents and service.. ( but i think this solution would be a pain in the ass for the Dev!!)

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-06-13 11:08:28 UTC
Well.

FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

People who pvp who have to put up with farmers flipping their systems and therefore messing with their docking.

If you defensive plex to keep a system you invite more farmers to try and take it from you, you dont get much isk and risk everything. At this point people, corps of people, just leave and pirate instead and make a farmer alt. Happened so much.

FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.

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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#45 - 2014-06-13 11:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Muad 'dib wrote:
Why do people think that this is a better reason to fight?

Yes you try and take a system so you can dock and the enemy cant but its farmers who dont actually live in low sec anyway that actually control it ultimately.

The ability isnt actually governed by the pvpers who actually live there.


Confirming that farmers ultimately control my ability to dock in Nisuwa Roll

The chips have fallen poorly for the amarr and they are looking at another good stretch as the underdog. better get ready for the lazy station huggers amongst them to constantly whine a point fingers instead of doing something about it.

Just like the good old days :)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-06-13 11:48:08 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.
FW has these nice things called 'complexes', with acceleration gates restricting ship sizes and deadspace restricting 'warp-to' both inside and outside. It's a unique tactical environment for solo and small-gang PVP and a meaningful alternative to fighting on gates, stations, structures and celestials.

Additionally, if you PVP in FW, you usually end up making decent ISK with very little need to 'grind'.

That's what FW is doing for PVP, imo.


The rest is far less important, though the current system gives fun occupancy battles too, at least in the gal-cal warzone.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-06-13 11:51:09 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Well.

FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

People who pvp who have to put up with farmers flipping their systems and therefore messing with their docking.

If you defensive plex to keep a system you invite more farmers to try and take it from you, you dont get much isk and risk everything. At this point people, corps of people, just leave and pirate instead and make a farmer alt. Happened so much.

FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.


Now you´re just trolling. STFU please.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
gas guzzler
Virtus Crusade Highsec Chapter
#48 - 2014-06-13 15:36:05 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Well.

FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

People who pvp who have to put up with farmers flipping their systems and therefore messing with their docking.

If you defensive plex to keep a system you invite more farmers to try and take it from you, you dont get much isk and risk everything. At this point people, corps of people, just leave and pirate instead and make a farmer alt. Happened so much.

FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.




the isk from fw means pvpers have to do LESS isk farming to replace losses.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-06-13 16:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
gas guzzler wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Well.

FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

People who pvp who have to put up with farmers flipping their systems and therefore messing with their docking.

If you defensive plex to keep a system you invite more farmers to try and take it from you, you dont get much isk and risk everything. At this point people, corps of people, just leave and pirate instead and make a farmer alt. Happened so much.

FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.




the isk from fw means pvpers have to do LESS isk farming to replace losses.


most of the people who plex for isk with alts arnt actually fw pvpers.

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Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-06-13 17:30:26 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
gas guzzler wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

the isk from fw means pvpers have to do LESS isk farming to replace losses.

most of the people who plex for isk with alts arnt actually fw pvpers.

1. What FW has been used for since Inferno in 3/4 of the factions and what it's actually intended to be can be 2 very different things. IMO, it was never intended as an ATM for AFK alts.

2. Plexing by AFK alts is way down.

3. Farmers who refuse to PvP will quickly find their isk/hour decrease to the point where even mining veldspar in highsec will be more lucrative.

4. If FW was intended to be a "sov lite" style system, or a PvP centric system, then station lockouts need to stay.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-06-13 18:46:34 UTC
Anyone just needs to look at the amount of ships killed in FW low-sec to prove that FW is about the PvP and not the ISK. Don't we have the most dangerous space in Eve? Sounds like PvP to me.




I really venture all of you people who think FW is all about ISK to venture into Null-sec and see how many people dock/cloak up when any kind of neutral enters system.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#52 - 2014-06-13 19:23:01 UTC
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Well.

FW is about about isk and farming since inferno, not pvp.

People who pvp who have to put up with farmers flipping their systems and therefore messing with their docking.

If you defensive plex to keep a system you invite more farmers to try and take it from you, you dont get much isk and risk everything. At this point people, corps of people, just leave and pirate instead and make a farmer alt. Happened so much.

FW is doing nothing for pvp, now if its only meant to be a isk paradise only for week old newbs fine just say that and we can quit too, but stop pretending like ccp care about pvp in fw.


Now you´re just trolling. STFU please.


Farmers gonna farm, trollers gonna troll.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#53 - 2014-06-13 19:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
I'm 'young' so I only experienced the current system. I think it's great.

Defending a home system is the most compelling reason to fight. Both for practical reasons and for very real 'human nature' reasons - sure it's just a game but 'fight for our homeland' rings in anybody's heart.

Logistics win wars. Having a station in-system rather than in the next-door system rather than just a staging POS makes a huge difference. Makes the pew pew more strategical..



Giving a pvp advantage to the side that can dock does not necessarily add strategy. It's just giving a pvp advantage to the winning side.

I know Gallente kept asking everyone to come fight in this or that system where you all have a clear pvp advantage. You then complain when the enemy doesn't do that. But here is the thing. Most pvpers don't want to fight in a system where they have a disadvantage. Why should they?


Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
....
The one change I would make to docking rights is that each militia corps stations were always locked to enemy militias and militia members can always dock. Whether that system is owned by friendlies or enemies. That said I haven't looked at the map to see how balanced that actually would be but it would mean areas historically asssociated with militias are slightly easier to hold defensively and newbies are not screwed as soon as they enter militia for low sec. It's also a way to slightly unfuck the crazy RP world FW is in right now.



This or something like this would be much better than the present.

I think once a system becomes contested everyone should be able to dock there. Finish one plex and the pvp is on an even footing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-06-13 19:40:27 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Giving a pvp advantage to the side that can dock does not necessarily add strategy. It's just giving a pvp advantage to the winning side.

I know Gallente kept asking everyone to come fight in this or that system where you all have a clear pvp advantage. You then complain when the enemy doesn't do that. But here is the thing. Most pvpers don't want to fight in a system where they have a disadvantage. Why should they?
It's strategy by definition.

Since having docking rights in a station system gives an advantage, it makes strategical sense to flip that system.

Also, I don't assume to know what 'most pvpers' think, but the pvpers I know - GalMil - are more than happy to fight in Caldari home systems. Recent examples are Enaluri, Innia and Kehjari.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-06-13 19:44:20 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Giving a pvp advantage to the side that can dock does not necessarily add strategy. It's just giving a pvp advantage to the winning side.

I know Gallente kept asking everyone to come fight in this or that system where you all have a clear pvp advantage. You then complain when the enemy doesn't do that. But here is the thing. Most pvpers don't want to fight in a system where they have a disadvantage. Why should they?
It's strategy by definition.

Since having docking rights in a station system gives an advantage, it makes strategical sense to flip that system.

Also, I don't assume to know what 'most pvpers' think, but the pvpers I know - GalMil - are more than happy to fight in Caldari home systems. Recent examples are Enaluri, Innia and Kehjari.

Guess that just makes us a really Elite class of PvPers - we fight even when we've got a disadvantage!!!!

Maybe we should really make things difficult on ourselves and start a civil war or something....

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-06-13 20:01:19 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Guess that just makes us a really Elite class of PvPers - we fight even when we've got a disadvantage!!!!

Maybe we should really make things difficult on ourselves and start a civil war or something....
Blink

We just like to fight, is all!


I respect other people's opinions, but I really don't understand this 'coax people to fight' mentality. Random examples I recently read:

- Remove learning implants, so people will pvp more without risking them

- Remove killboards, so people won't stress about efficiency

- Remove cynos from lowsec, so people won't be afraid of being dropped

- This thread: remove station locks in FW. Or please CCP, at least give us our SPROT stations back!

- Etc. etc.


WTF? If you want to fight, undock and fight. Else station spin all day. If I wanted to shoot at people that need to be 'convinced' or 'forced' to PVP, I'd be a suicide ganker.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2014-06-13 20:07:16 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Giving a pvp advantage to the side that can dock does not necessarily add strategy. It's just giving a pvp advantage to the winning side.

I know Gallente kept asking everyone to come fight in this or that system where you all have a clear pvp advantage. You then complain when the enemy doesn't do that. But here is the thing. Most pvpers don't want to fight in a system where they have a disadvantage. Why should they?
It's strategy by definition.

Since having docking rights in a station system gives an advantage, it makes strategical sense to flip that system..


Or avoid it.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Also, I don't assume to know what 'most pvpers' think, but the pvpers I know - GalMil - are more than happy to fight in Caldari home systems. Recent examples are Enaluri, Innia and Kehjari.


I am just going based on anecdotal experience. Pvpers don't want to fight in situations that favor the enemy. Maybe your experience is different.

As for Gallente using overwheliming force, that's fine and good. The docking advantage won't always be decisive. Both sides in equal numbers and ships on either side of a gate and neither wants to jump in to the other. If one side has 20 cruisers and the other only has 3 frigates the cruisers will go ahead and jump in - assuming they want to bother with it.


Looking at the forums I saw many gallente seemed puzzled that Test didn't want to fight in your home systems. Didn't they get it? They were more interested in tiers and lp gains from that than taking some imagined "homeland" that you told them about.


I am just suggesting that perhaps its because you guys have a considerable advantage there. If you didn't have such a big advantage maybe you would have see more offensives. Gallente turtled up and complained that no one wanted to bang their knuckles on your shell. Why should they? You could keep docking there all you wanted but that didn't enable you to prevent them from achieving their goals of taking systems and getting better lp payouts.

I say, let everyone dock once the system is contested. I think you will see much more fighting throughout the warzone than you do now. I think it would add a small amount of strategy and it would make people much more likely to fight for that first offensive plex rather than just figure they can dplex in an empty frigate later.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
ALUCARD 1208
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#58 - 2014-06-13 20:19:57 UTC
all i read from op was boohoo its boring now tmfed cant camp station with a carrier and mach no more

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-06-13 20:23:16 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Both sides in equal numbers and ships on either side of a gate and neither wants to jump in to the other.
I've honestly never flown with an FC that wouldn't jump the fleet in that situation. If I ever did, it would likely be the last time I joined his fleets.


Cearain wrote:
Looking at the forums I saw many gallente seemed puzzled that Test didn't want to fight in your home systems.
They tried, they failed, they gave up because yes, their objective was LP.

GalMil's objective is, above all, fights. So we had a blast murdering Test both in Eha (while they tried to take it) and in Innia (that became our go-to system for fights).

We didn't fight Test in Innia to take the system (though sure, it would've been awesome) but for the sake of fights.


Cearain wrote:
I say, let everyone dock once the system is contested. I think you will see much more fighting throughout the warzone than you do now.
Maybe, maybe not. I like the current system for the reasons I stated above. And there's no shortage of fights in Gal-Cal warzone. So why fix it if it ain't broke?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-06-13 20:57:20 UTC
it just removes pvp ability and is govened by farmers!

if fw is just ment to be pve isk fountain just tell us so we can go pirate. thanks.

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