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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Skill acquisition. Time for change?

First post
Author
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#41 - 2014-06-12 21:37:51 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Christ, I keep telling myself not to bite but this just can't go unanswered...

Phaade wrote:
TLDR; Vets who think new players have a chance in pvp are kidding themselves. All gameplay complexity aside (piloting mechanics etc) the difference between new player's and veteran's combat effectiveness is staggering.

A lot of your arguments are hyperbolic.

Yes, a newbie will not be able to stand toe to toe against a veteran in the same ship with the same fit. I cannot even think of one skillpoint based MMO game that allows for this to even happen... however...

- it is rare for any two people to be flying the same ship with the same exact fit. This means that there will almost always be a difference in capabilities and tactics which can give the edge to either person.
And like I said in my previous post in this thread, "ships and weapons have been balanced against one another." If a veteran is in a HAC or battleship, the newbie can just fly away rather than engage. And he/she cannot be caught due to the nature of frigates (high mobility). And the veterans will not chase because in order to catch that newbie frigate they have to ship down... which takes time... while that newbie frigate gets further and further away.




Your response, makes almost no sense.

Of course a newb in a frigate can run from a veteran in a battleship.....?

I'm under the assumption that a new pilot actually wants to be involved in a fight when engaging in PvP, not running from T2 cruisers and battleships.

One of my t1 frigate fits will kill ANYTHING that said new player can put together. I don't care if it's my scram kite rifter, or my brawling tristan, or my rocket condor, my ship is so much more powerful (due mainly to skill points) than any new players. HIs tactics and piloting are almost irrelevant.

Reading comprehension: Of course they are going to fly in fleets. However, about the only role they can fill is suicide tackle. Their damage on the target will almost always be next to nothing, they will be steamrolled by a gang of vets, engagement profile is so limited that in a t1 frigate myself, my buddy and I can not engage even a faction frigate, much less an AF or cruiser, with hopes of winning. Etc etc etc. This is because their fits, and skills, make them almost entirely combat ineffective.

And guess what, when a t1 frigate sees two t1 frigates coming at them, they almost always run away, so it's damn hard to find fights anyway. This is because their fits, and skills, make them almost entirely combat ineffective.

The point is that skills have too much of an impact on the new guys. It is demoralizing for the vast majority of people who start playing this game
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#42 - 2014-06-12 21:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Phaade wrote:
I disagree; a pilot on a trial account will literally never kill me in any 1v1 situation. Unless I am afk.

Of course they won't. Nobody is saying they can. But they can do other things of equal importance that can result in your death... like hard tackling you just long enough for me to apply my scram and web... or applying Ewar to turn the battle more in my favor.

edit: In my last post I gave the opposite reaction to what I put in my first post (first was engaging, second was running). Both are valid ways of fighting. You can "win" simply by not engaging. You can also win by engaging targets you think you can survive against. You learn both by flying and dying as a newbie. It's a process. One that the skill system enforces.

Quote:
One of my t1 frigate fits will kill ANYTHING that said new player can put together. I don't care if it's my scram kite rifter, or my brawling tristan, or my rocket condor, my ship is so much more powerful (due mainly to skill points) than any new players. HIs tactics and piloting are almost irrelevant.

Why are you so obsessed with pointing out that a newbie can never beat you in a 1v1? Of COURSE they won't be able to beat you in a 1v1. Again, this is true in ANY skillpoint based MMO.
The difference is that in EVE you have other options beyond "getting more skillpoints" to even the odds. And that is what the current skill system forces/encourages you to do. By being slow you, the player, become impatient and search for other avenues to make things work.
And with time and specialization, you will eventually begin to operate in a fashion similar to a veteran... taking with you all the experiences and knowledge you accumulated to make "cheap equipment" effective.

If people quit because of this... well... the game is not for everyone.

And no... EVE isn't "hardcore" because it makes you wait. Patience is merely a tool to get to the end you desire. EVE is "hardcore" because it forces you to think around and outside the mechanics/players that hold you back. And the skill system assists with that very nicely by playing to your impatience and making you think.

Quote:
Of course they are going to fly in fleets. However, about the only role they can fill is suicide tackle. Their damage on the target will almost always be next to nothing, they will be steamrolled by a gang of vets, engagement profile is so limited that in a t1 frigate myself, my buddy and I can not engage even a faction frigate, much less an AF or cruiser, with hopes of winning. Etc etc etc. This is because their fits, and skills, make them almost entirely combat ineffective.

As a suicide tackler you job is not there to apply damage. It's to hold someone down and LIVE.
Now is tackling limited... sort of. It is useful to others? Immensely. Will it teach you about the game? Absolutely. Will skillpoints make you better at it? Only so much.

And you will not engage a faction frigate because you are flying Tech 1 stuff? I want to insult you but the ISDs will just smack me if I do that. So I'm just going to *facepalm* and say that I was gunning for such targets when I was rookie... and while I often died... I made damn sure I held them down long enough to ensure their deaths too.

Hell... look at my killboard losses for the month of April.
- I lost a Slicer to a bunch of scrub-fit Breechers. I killed two of them... but they still won in terms of efficiency (and probably made some profit off of insurance and my loot).
- That Tristan I lost? I almost won had my guns not burned out (he had less than 25% structure). The Comet pilot started in July 2013. I am an April 2009 player. His EVE-board (when it was still up) showed that his gunnery and drone skills were lower than mine.

Point is... you can engage most things if you think hard enough and/or have enough people and WIN.
Ved Riru
#43 - 2014-06-12 21:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ved Riru
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
There is a reason this thread gets locked every time it comes up and that's because the system works as is. I'm sorry you wasted two hours.

I didn’t waste the time completely. For one reason it is good to know how much time it takes to learn all the skills to five at least approximately. There are other considerations, too.

De'Veldrin wrote:
And while it may seem like us "old guys" have a vested interest in keeping the new guys from "catching up", that's really the source of the misconception.

There are also psychological reasons. Once someone has spent time and effort and money to reach something, s/he will go out of his or her way to prove they did the right thing and are not fools at all.

Samillian wrote:
5. Buy learning implants. Although I think you'll find a fair few who would rather see them removed from the game altogether. Any other way of accelerating training especially for cash is unacceptable to a large number of players.

Are there any other learning implants than +5 to a specific attribute? Nothing beats those for learning purposes, right?

Aliventi wrote:
Remove attributes and attribute implants. Skills train at 2700 SP/hr and the SP is deposited in to a free SP pool that is capped at 1-3 mil SP. Then when you want to train a skill you just apply the SP out of the pool. Simple for noobs to understand and not screw up and allows them to PvP without worrying about losing their +3 implants. Nice for us older players that may not be able always have access to Eve due to business trips, military deployments, etc.

Sounds like a great idea to me. I may be okay with training for a long time although I still detest my SP acquisition being throttled that much “in order for me to learn to play with smaller and cheaper ships first” but I dislike ineffective training due to skills being remapped the wrong way much more. Maybe OCD.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3, 4, & 5.) Those riots you linked above.... they were protesting CCP adding pay2win to the game. Adding premium packs that give out 20m SP is exactly what they were protesting. If you want a head start, find someone else that has already trained a character and buy it from them. This is the entire point of the character bazaar.

Three points:
1. People were protesting against a useless monocle with an $80 price tag and stuff like that I thought.
2. Is it okay to buy characters from players but not from the developer? Besides, characters sold via the character bazaar cannot be renamed AFAIK so they come packaged with bad or good stories about them, bad or good standings with player factions and what not. And then they are likely not trained the way I want.
3. Option 5 was about CCP giving players free stuff. Not Pay2Win at all.

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.

I wonder how Eve Online can exist at all if things are run the way they are described.

There are multiple truths in every fact. I protect my truths with a passion.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2014-06-12 22:03:24 UTC
Ved Riru wrote:

2. Is it okay to buy characters from players but not from the developer? Besides, characters sold via the character bazaar cannot be renamed AFAIK so they come packaged with bad or good stories about them, bad or good standings with player factions and what not. And then they are likely not trained the way I want.


It astonishes me that you fail to realize that is the point of the character bazaar.


Quote:

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.


Hyperbole does not make your basic point any less false.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#45 - 2014-06-12 22:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Ved Riru wrote:

1. People were protesting against a useless monocle with an $80 price tag and stuff like that I thought.


the biggest upset was a leaked memo that mentioned selling items for real money that were more powerful than standard.

Ved Riru wrote:

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.



and thats how we like it.

Ved Riru wrote:
I wonder how Eve Online can exist at all if things are run the way they are described.


How the game development is managed and what mechanics make up a game are not the same. If u want to make suggestions on how CCP should manage their teams then go ahead, what area of the forums that should go in however, i have no idea.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#46 - 2014-06-12 22:38:35 UTC
Ved Riru wrote:

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.

I wonder how Eve Online can exist at all if things are run the way they are described.


Speak for yourself, I got a trial send, had no idea what the game was about, actually played the tutorials and got some knowledge about how to acquire information. After just 2 weeks into the game I was already helping others who had difficulties with the game and were way longer in it then me. I could even answer questions correctly and faster then most long time players in the help chat, due to quick usage of the tools at hand.

You got a question, I didn't know the answer, but in about 2 min I could find it for you, link a text guide and a vid. This is no game where you get pre-chewed food and mouth fed. Well, helping is some times like this, but that's interaction, that's ok, Being helpless and too dumb to ask and then whine on the other hand is not.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#47 - 2014-06-12 22:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Ved Riru wrote:

Three points:
1. People were protesting against a useless monocle with an $80 price tag and stuff like that I thought.


You thought wrong. There were a number of lesser issues at play, including but not limited to:

-The relative lack of "playable" content in the patch
-A leaked internal newsletter
-Performance issues/excessive GPU stress
-The temporary loss of ship spinning
-And, yes, even pricing

But the thing that really brought it all to a head was a general refusal by CCP to categorically state that they would not implement "gold ammo" and other pay-to-win features.

Quote:
2. Is it okay to buy characters from players but not from the developer?


Yes, because when you buy a character from a player, another player had to spend time/money/in game resources developing that character. When you buy these things from the developer, they're simply *poofed* into existence.

You're obviously still not grasping that Eve is, as much as anything else, an economic simulator, and that virtually every truly awful idea you've posted has been the kind of thing that is simply anathema in a player run economy.

Quote:
Besides, characters sold via the character bazaar cannot be renamed AFAIK so they come packaged with bad or good stories about them, bad or good standings with player factions and what not. And then they are likely not trained the way I want.


Again, that's part of the ******* point. Do your homework before you buy.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#48 - 2014-06-12 22:46:04 UTC
Ved Riru wrote:


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3, 4, & 5.) Those riots you linked above.... they were protesting CCP adding pay2win to the game. Adding premium packs that give out 20m SP is exactly what they were protesting. If you want a head start, find someone else that has already trained a character and buy it from them. This is the entire point of the character bazaar.

Three points:
1. People were protesting against a useless monocle with an $80 price tag and stuff like that I thought.
2. Is it okay to buy characters from players but not from the developer? Besides, characters sold via the character bazaar cannot be renamed AFAIK so they come packaged with bad or good stories about them, bad or good standings with player factions and what not. And then they are likely not trained the way I want.
3. Option 5 was about CCP giving players free stuff. Not Pay2Win at all.

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.

I wonder how Eve Online can exist at all if things are run the way they are described.


1.) The Riots: At that point in time, CCP had been releasing unfinished features, promising undelivered content, and more. Incarna's release forced everyone to load the captains quarters and walk around it every time they docked, yet had no relevant gameplay. This caused severe discontent among players, both with those who really wanted the barbies in space game play and those that vehemently didn't want to play barbies in space. However, this was only one factor leading to the Burn Jita riots. The playbase had clearly and nearly-unanimously proclaimed that pay-2-win microtransactions were NOT something we wanted to see in EvE, and CCP publicly stated they would NOT implement them. Then, alongside the deployment of the much anticipated yet extremely disappointing Incarna release, a CCP employee leaked the "Greed is Good" internal memo. In it, CCP pretty much stated they planning to release gold-plated ammo and pay2win microtransactions while completely disregarding the playerbase's desires. The memo's message was the true reason for the Jita Riots, and the $70 Monocle was simply a symbol that represented our plight: CCP development was completely out of touch with the desires, needs, and demands of the playerbase.

2.) The character history, standings, and background are part of the character. It doesn't just spawn into existence with full stats, but must be developed. The character bazaar simply allows you to trade an already developed character to another person's control, which is very different than spawning a brand new character tooled to your every whim.

3.) If I were to give attribute enhancements to significantly increase SP training, I certainly wouldn't bias them towards older players.

In the end, we understand you want to speed up training for your characters. Before we go down the path of how "best" to implement it, I'd like you to explain what is wrong with the current progression! CCP, and the player base, are willing to listen to the problems and difficulties that new players experience, and wants to improve that experience. So please outline what isn't working for you, and we can talk about solutions from there!
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#49 - 2014-06-12 22:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
I still don't know, why I get dragged in to post here, this thread should really be closed.

Hey, guess what, used the search function, figured out how to report.

Mostly pointless thread has turned to yes - no, yes - no, yes - no, yes - no, but, but, but, because... time to end this.
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#50 - 2014-06-12 23:27:16 UTC
I recently just finished skilling a char to be a perfect logi pilot with all the needed skills to lvl 5 so I have a good idea of how long it takes to spec towards certain ship classes even today. yea its nice you guys are getting an easier way of obtaining t2 guns and getting into certain ships than us vets did. the skill system, what is left of it is fine as it is

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-06-12 23:53:33 UTC
Let me stop you at "I am a new player with about two months of played time under my belt."

You have no right to come here and suggest that the entire skill point system should be entirely different... Once you've played for aproxx. 6 months - 1 year, then you may come back and talk..
. EXCEPT learn to search for this topic, we see this topic being brought up multiple times every week.
Ved Riru
#52 - 2014-06-13 07:46:22 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
In the end, we understand you want to speed up training for your characters. Before we go down the path of how "best" to implement it, I'd like you to explain what is wrong with the current progression! CCP, and the player base, are willing to listen to the problems and difficulties that new players experience, and wants to improve that experience. So please outline what isn't working for you, and we can talk about solutions from there!

Two things:
It seems to me old-time players are accustomed to spending a lot of real-life time like days, weeks and in some bad cases even months to get a specific degree of a skill. You revolted against CCP and yet you tolerate this BS? And many of you preach the mantra “An achievement feels much better if you spend longer getting there”. Months and years longer when combined? That sort of blindness that is enforced on new players as a standard everyone has to accept I don’t like one bit. Elite… A unique game…

Then I don’t like that I have to wait for days or weeks to get some skills. It is too long. And if I have spent the remaps available for a year, then getting some skills takes even longer. Life goes on. I don’t have an infinite amount of days that I can spend waiting to be able to equip some tier two modules or squeeze a little bit more out of power grid or CPU enhancing skills so that I can fit ships properly the way Battleclinic tells me to. And I don’t care about officer, factions, or deadspace modules or whatever. Those are too expensive. Just regular T2 that seems to be the standard gear.

Celthric Kanerian wrote:
You have no right to come here and suggest that the entire skill point system should be entirely different... Once you've played for aproxx. 6 months - 1 year, then you may come back and talk.

Once I am no longer on trial and I have paid any amount of money to CCP to play the game, I have every right to speak what I want and how I want in accordance with the terms of service. You don’t care about me. Why do I have to care about you? Your post is not productive. Move along.

There are multiple truths in every fact. I protect my truths with a passion.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#53 - 2014-06-13 08:07:28 UTC
Quote:
Then I don’t like that I have to wait for days or weeks to get some skills. It is too long.


This is your problem, you are part of the 'I want it now' gameplay crowd and that is not something that Eve supports.

You also seem to think that you deserve the same amount of skills as someone who has been playing for years. Why?


Sorry but I personally think that you should spend more than a month in Eve before you start proposing huge changes to core aspects of the game.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#54 - 2014-06-13 08:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Ved Riru wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3, 4, & 5.) Those riots you linked above.... they were protesting CCP adding pay2win to the game. Adding premium packs that give out 20m SP is exactly what they were protesting. If you want a head start, find someone else that has already trained a character and buy it from them. This is the entire point of the character bazaar.

Three points:
1. People were protesting against a useless monocle with an $80 price tag and stuff like that I thought.
2. Is it okay to buy characters from players but not from the developer? Besides, characters sold via the character bazaar cannot be renamed AFAIK so they come packaged with bad or good stories about them, bad or good standings with player factions and what not. And then they are likely not trained the way I want.
3. Option 5 was about CCP giving players free stuff. Not Pay2Win at all.

Oh well. The way I see it now: Eve Online is one of those games which manual gamers do need to read, players who want to play the game have to get a tutor and follow advice strictly because Eve University Wiki and Google + eve.battleclinic.com are not sufficient. Master’s Degree in gaming needs to be listed in system requirements. Otherwise, it’s pain all the way.

I wonder how Eve Online can exist at all if things are run the way they are described.
1. The Monocle was talked about and it's cost. But the real issue was the greed is good letter leak and the idea that CCP intended selling P2W items via MT.

2. That's the whole point. Characters via the bazaar already exist on the server, they already acquired their SP through normal game mechanics. But they come with baggage and you need to be selective, in order to reduce the amount of baggage you get.
This includes the name, where the SP is distributed and their history.
These are costs that SHOULD be there, when buying a char from the bazaar.

3. No, you suggested P2W and we do not want it. History tells us that.

CCP is not infallible, hence the history we mentioned, but they do have a track record of this game growing over ten + years.
They have done this by keeping the core of the game, pretty much the same as it was from the start. The issue we face, are players like yourself wishing to undermine that and remove the core. We will fight tooth and nail to prevent it.

Yes Eve is a vast and complicated game, no one ever said different. This is another reason why all these ideas will not work, they are simply not required. Understanding and a little patience goes a long way in Eve, as well as a good corp. If you end up in a corp with a CEO or member, telling you you need all level 5s or a BS to do this or that, then you'll be screwed. But that isn't the fault of the game.

You coming here peddling these ideas, simply perpetuates those bad ideas. So don't expect anyone but those with little understanding, to welcome them.

You posted the other day, the following:
Ved Riru wrote:
At least in WoW I can train several characters at once without paying extra for it (training up to a point, rested XP).

Turns out you cannot train them all at once, you can only train them as we do in Eve. One at a time. But we do now have the option to train all three and play one to make the ISK for that. Something that WoW lacks. It also lacks the ability to train whilst not logged on.

Why? Because they are not the same game. Their skill acquisition and usage, is not the same. It's all well and good coming here looking through your WoW coloured glasses, but they are tainting your view and making you miss the obvious.

Also, it's an awful idea.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-06-13 09:09:51 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Oh, this again. /sigh

The skill system is fine. Move along.


This kind of answer again... /sigh
Velicitia
XS Tech
#56 - 2014-06-13 10:03:04 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Exhumers --> well, I started out as a miner.
Rorqual --> TBH, I'm still not sure myself why I got this ...

Training for Exhumers is going far beyond the starting point in the mining profession. Most people who want to pvp don't even bother to train for the Venture. They go from noob ship to T1 frigate to destroyer/cruiser, jump into missions somewhere along that path, and then move into into pvp shortly thereafter.


Yeah, well, I'm on the "older player" end of the spectrum ... so "started out" as in "well, I played for 18 months as a miner / industrialist / jack of all trades". (2007-08)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2014-06-13 10:06:58 UTC
The skill system is just fine the way it is. Because it doesn´t matter how much you play and how often all Players skill at the same base speed. If you don´t like it pls ask why it is so and don´t try to change things you didn´t understand in the first place.

Vote 4 close



Ved Riru
#58 - 2014-06-13 10:14:14 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
The skill system is just fine the way it is. Because it doesn´t matter how much you play and how often all Players skill at the same base speed. If you don´t like it pls ask why it is so and don´t try to change things you didn´t understand in the first place.

Can you read?

There are multiple truths in every fact. I protect my truths with a passion.

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-06-13 10:22:15 UTC
"Once I am no longer on trial and I have paid any amount of money to CCP to play the game"

Sure, you've done your trial and you're paying for the game now, but saying that the way skills are should be changed is completely disrespectful towards older players like myself, and even to the veteran players from 03.

In a few words: You are still a noob to this game, you do not fully understand the way of things in this game yet.
So wait a while before posting stuff on forum before you understand things better.
Ihazcheez Hashur
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2014-06-13 10:40:43 UTC
Bittervets want to keep ahead as they have 11+years of continual skill queuing. if some newb can sign into eve and on day 30 can fly a titan, then it'll just be alts-in-space and the game would just be absolute chaos. Throw-away-alts would be absolutely viable as a mechanism to wreck havoc on unprecedented scales. It would do more harm than good in every angle and direction conceivable.