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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1121 - 2014-06-11 08:54:13 UTC
Wilhelm Ormand wrote:
To the people who seem to be disliking the new tooltips: try setting the delay to none. This might seem counterintuitive, but without delay the information is almost instant (except for the fade in). This removed the annoyance for me and now they're actually really usefull because they give me information without having to open an info/contract/fleet window.


And then you get the completely useless ones (star, station, close window, frigate etc) appearing instantly all over the screen. Dont be silly.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1122 - 2014-06-11 08:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Yes, we know things have been busy in CCP the last couple of weeks. However, that is not a good sign of things to come.

Your new development cycle will go something like this...

Week 1 & 2: Finalising changes for the up coming patch
Week 3: Patch deployment & immediate fixes
Week 4: Bigger fixes of things broken in the patch
Week 5 & 6: Time to look at things outstanding from previous patches.


So, as you can see not a lot of time for “iterations” to fix stuff already broken....Like this.


Good times ahead.
Jay BuHoBHy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1123 - 2014-06-11 10:59:40 UTC
Panterata wrote:
copy > paste

So I will repeat myself again for 6 time:

Tell us when you will put on/off option?? after 1 week, after 1 month.... the question is so simple

(we noted one hundred times that you are "still working" and there is "ongoing work")


bump
Wilhelm Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1124 - 2014-06-11 14:37:02 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
And then you get the completely useless ones (star, station, close window, frigate etc) appearing instantly all over the screen. Dont be silly.

That is certainly true, and a slider that changes which tooltips pop up (from everything to none and usefull grades in the middle) would be great, but so far there isn't. Luckilly though the human brain is great in filtering useless information out. And because eve is a game wherein fast information can give you an edge this makes the choice easy for me. But to each there own.

To stay on the topic of tooltips: whenever there is a blob of objects under the cursor only a small random selection of 15-20 or so are shown in the bracket list tooltip. Can this be expanded to show every object under the cursor? Because as it is now, not only is the information partial, but the fact that it is partial is hidden from the user. So either:
1. Show visually that the list is partial, or
2. Make the bracket list able to list all objects (preferred)
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#1125 - 2014-06-11 21:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
Another thing, it is nice to be able to see exact, instantly updated capacitor, armor, shield, and hull figures. But that information should NOT be in a tooltip. One should be able to have that information permanently on screen, as having to wait for that information to appear is contradictory, at best (read: "Recieve delayed instant updates!"). This also does not mean the HUD should be redesigned by someone who clearly does not play the game. Just given more display options.
You can actually show armor, shield and hull % already. Click the 4 line icon on the lower right side of the HUD and select "display readout"

"Exact figures" means the hard numbers. Not percentages. Percentages and iconography don't really give an exact feel for how the capacitor/shield charge rates work.
Ok. then select the option below, that says something about absolute readout I think.


So I have a new question.

The armor/shield/hull tooltip was one of the few tooltips I was actually praising. Before this exchange, I thought it provided non-redundant information and my gripe was how the information in said tooltip couldn't be permanently displayed.

Which brings me to my question. Why did you exert so much effort to remove me from that stance? The shield/armor/hull tooltip was part of the proverbial baby in the bathwater I was arguing should be saved. So now I'm down to three useful tooltips total (queue, wallet, capacitor). Why cut off a baby's arm to make a point? You're basically saying "We're not throwing baby with bathwater, see, baby IS bathwater!"

Could you be trying to imply you are not in full support of the tooltip update and it was forced upon you by people who shouldn't be making any sort of design decisions? Because, if so, cool! Tell me who they are and I'll whip up some voodoo dolls.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1126 - 2014-06-12 11:10:13 UTC
CCP: We all know that you have been busy over the last week fixing what you broke with the Kronos patch, but things should be a little quieter now.

So, time to get back to sorting out the additional sliders/checkboxes for these crappy tooltips, or better yet an off button for all the non-essential fluffy ones. And revert the brackets in space while you’re at it.

If you need a hint on a really good way to do this, take a look at the new audio options, they really do let the player (that’s PAYING customer) chose his particular style of gameplay.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1127 - 2014-06-12 18:20:05 UTC
Disable tooltip button please.

The Tears Must Flow
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#1128 - 2014-06-13 02:30:31 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
We have a few ideas how to improve the experience, and have already made some prototypes, and we need to assess if that's something we should go forward with and how it addresses the pain points.

Thanks for your specific examples, they have been useful to us Smile


Here is an idea....

You want to know how we want it to function?

Revert back to the old system, compare the actual functionality it had, quick, concise, useful info. Then build a new system similar to that if you must. But what was wrong with the old system? Oh thats right, it wasn't redundant enough...so just make the old system tell us that stargates are stargates and stations are stations. Problem solved.

Alot of ppl on don't necessarily want the "on/off" because alot of the old system's info was VERY USEFUL....whereas the new system either tells us something that is already stated one (or more) times on the screen, and while doing so BLOCKS key areas of the screen and prevents us from seeing any other related info.

We just want a system that has the same (or more) level of FUNCTIONALITY as the old system. Make it shinier if you must, but the level of functionality MUST be there.

-
Also, there has been a repeated question that has remained unanswered so far in this 57 page threadnaught....What was wrong with the old system that it so desperately needed to be changed?
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1129 - 2014-06-13 06:45:15 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
-
Also, there has been a repeated question that has remained unanswered so far in this 57 page threadnaught....What was wrong with the old system that it so desperately needed to be changed?


It had to be changed because it worked and needed to be broken.

No point in fixing things that are already broken when there is working stuff that can be completely wrecked eh ?
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1130 - 2014-06-13 16:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Hi all,

A little tooltip update:

Today we deployed 2 tooltip fixes to TQ:
  • Fixed an issue where tooltips persist after the mouse goes outside the client borders.
  • Fixed an issue where entities no longer on grid would not gray-out correctly in in-space brackets.

We have been working hard on improving the bracket list, taking your feedback into consideration.
We now have a version that is a combination of the "old" bracket list and the new one.
For brackets that are floating in space, it’s very similar to the old bracket list, but on the edges, we have a box similar to the bracket list that you currently have on TQ.
The reason is that on the edges there are often other UI elements that the bracket list needs to overlap, and it becomes very messy and hard to read without the background.
Please see these screenshots to see where we are at right now.

This is still work in progress and we are iterating on it, and we would really like your help with it. We are hoping to put it onto a test server as soon as possible (hopefully next week), and I hope you will log in then, give the brackets a try and tell us what you think.
We are open to and asking for feedback, but please keep it constructive and to the point.

Here are some of the changes that have been made in the new version:
  • The picking of the brackets has been improved
  • As you can see from the screenshot, full entity names are always visible
  • The lists are now "stickied", and stay until some other bracket is moused over or the mouse is clicked.
  • The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).
  • One of the reasons for the background in the box was to make it easier to read the bracket names against bright nebula/sun, but in order to remove the black background, we have now developed shadow for the text that will make it easier to read the text in those situation.
(until we have this on a test server, feel free to ask further about this implementation).

Also, we want to change the tooltip in the map so it does not follow the generic delay and appears instantly, since it’s not really “extra info” but rather important part of the ui.

Have a nice weekend all Smile

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1131 - 2014-06-13 19:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
As the devs are still refusing to listen and answer questions, can all those wanting this ridiculous situation to change make their voices known in this thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=349789&find=unread

I know that the CSM have been little help so far, but you never know.
Thanks.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Arec Bardwin
#1132 - 2014-06-13 19:55:49 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Bracket list update
THIS is how it should have been done before the old bracket selection was replaced. Glad to see you are working on it.

I'm guessing the 'new' version is the two on the left in screenshot?

Some points:

- even though scroll bar has been removed, could you leave the option to scroll with mouse wheel if the number of objects is bigger than what fits in the list?

- would it be possible with options for the bracket selection list, like font size, max list length etc?

- how about options for what is displayed in the list, like overview profiles? Perhaps bracket type priority based on current overview profile?
Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#1133 - 2014-06-13 19:56:40 UTC
@ CCP karkur

i very much appreciate your hard work and effort, look forward to testing it on testserver
Arec Bardwin
#1134 - 2014-06-13 19:59:29 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

We are open to and asking for feedback, but please keep it constructive and to the point.
If player feed back seems heated and negative, this is mostly because players care about the game. This is a GOOD thing.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1135 - 2014-06-13 20:05:06 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Bracket list update
THIS is how it should have been done before the old bracket selection was replaced. Glad to see you are working on it.

I'm guessing the 'new' version is the two on the left in screenshot?

Some points:

- even though scroll bar has been removed, could you leave the option to scroll with mouse wheel if the number of objects is bigger than what fits in the list?

- would it be possible with options for the bracket selection list, like font size, max list length etc?

- how about options for what is displayed in the list, like overview profiles? Perhaps bracket type priority based on current overview profile?

I'll bring up those points with the other team members.
As far as I remember, making a priority call on what to display would require processing all the brackets, which can get pretty expensive.
Wasn't the problem with the scrolling that you can't see everything in the list... only removing the scroll bar but still have a scrollable list would not solve that.

But the new version is all of those... the ones on the left are when the brackets are floating in space, but the ones on the right are when the brackets are on the edges.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Arec Bardwin
#1136 - 2014-06-13 20:18:32 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

As far as I remember, making a priority call on what to display would require processing all the brackets, which can get pretty expensive.
Wasn't the problem with the scrolling that you can't see everything in the list... only removing the scroll bar but still have a scrollable list would not solve that.

But the new version is all of those... the ones on the left are when the brackets are floating in space, but the ones on the right are when the brackets are on the edges.

- I think an option to be able to scroll would be nice. Had to try it with the new bracket list though.
- What strikes me with the new bracket list (left version) is that there is too much space between the items in the list. An option to compress it considerably would be great. Perhaps an option for max number of items displayed as well.

Let me say I'm really happy you are working on this! This is a very important piece of the UI in my opinion.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1137 - 2014-06-13 20:30:12 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:

As far as I remember, making a priority call on what to display would require processing all the brackets, which can get pretty expensive.
Wasn't the problem with the scrolling that you can't see everything in the list... only removing the scroll bar but still have a scrollable list would not solve that.

But the new version is all of those... the ones on the left are when the brackets are floating in space, but the ones on the right are when the brackets are on the edges.

- I think an option to be able to scroll would be nice. Had to try it with the new bracket list though.
- What strikes me with the new bracket list (left version) is that there is too much space between the items in the list. An option to compress it considerably would be great. Perhaps an option for max number of items displayed as well.

Let me say I'm really happy you are working on this! This is a very important piece of the UI in my opinion.
Yeah, we talked about it today that the boxed version is more compact, but I think it's more likely that the boxed version will be spaced out a bit because there needs to be more room for tags, selection circles and stuff.

But as I said, the bracket picking has been improved, so now you will less often have cases where the list is full 15 bracket so the 15 bracket cap might be a non-issue, we'll see with further testing (we are also open to increasing the max amount of brackets)

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1138 - 2014-06-13 21:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Actually, that doesn't look bad at all. Really need to see it on sisi, though. I'll definitely be testing this when it hits.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Oraac Ensor
#1139 - 2014-06-14 00:06:18 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
We have been working hard on improving the bracket list, taking your feedback into consideration.
We now have a version that is a combination of the "old" bracket list and the new one.
For brackets that are floating in space, it’s very similar to the old bracket list, but on the edges, we have a box similar to the bracket list that you currently have on TQ.
The reason is that on the edges there are often other UI elements that the bracket list needs to overlap, and it becomes very messy and hard to read without the background.
Please see these screenshots to see where we are at right now.

I fully understand your reasons for keeping the box for the screen edge bracket list, and as this is essentially showing off-screen information I would not find it intrusive.

On the other hand, I fail to see what you can think you are achieving with your new centre-screen old/new hybrid list. I still see a black box. Why? What purpose does it serve? How can you not understand when we say that we object to an immersion-breaking 'black box in space' slapped into the middle of the screen?

I am very pleased to see that you are indeed still working towards a solution to our objections but, please, get rid of any hint of a centre-screen black box.
Kenneth Endashi
Kor-Azor Slave Holdings
#1140 - 2014-06-14 03:33:30 UTC
Okay, I am not quitting the game. Thanks for all your hard work, CCP.

I agree the tall box looks weird in space, but who the hell cares? More changes are on the way. You do actually listen to your people.

Thanks again. And thanks for keeping us informed.