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Industry expansion - Industry problem
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Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2014-06-09 06:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Fal Dara wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Fal Dara wrote:
Say i build 2k retrivers before the patch--this was an investment of my capital. If i still have 1000 now, you want to know why? Well, the reason is because their sell price has not approached their current build price.



The reason you haven't sold them has nothing to do with the cost of manufacturing them.


but i did...

what happened? you just stop reading right there?

it has EVERYTHING to do with manufacturing them. if i sell them for less than their current materials are worth now, then i am not going to be able to build as many of them later (because the cost to build went up!).

the people who may have massive numbers of these things, shouldnt (i would say cant, but that's just me) sell them untill, like you, they see it's at or near their NEW build costs....

THEY suffer the same problem you do! if they sell for below cost (and many are just re-selling ones they bought, actually, these are not the builders), they make no profit!

THEY cant build them right now either!!!

they make no profit, even if they have a thousand of them RIGHT NOW, because if you sell them for less than their build cost NOW--then you cant make as many as you just sold. you've lost ISK.

this is literally not even remotely a problem ANYONE can avoid--it's not profitable for ANYONE, so long as it's below current build cost, no matter what you made them for in the first place...

(i used to make billions a month on these ships, i make ZERO now--we all suffer. deal with it.)


Yes it does have everything to do with manufucaturing them and you dont even make any sense.

If you sell them for less than the current price you would still make a profit because the ones produced before that patch have a 900%+ mark up value

And i dont believe a word you say about what you produce because it comes across as you talking crap just to prove a point and if you make zero on these ships now all you do is prove my point.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-06-09 06:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Joe Boirele wrote:
I note that you have posted a thread in "Features and Ideas", that, in fact, lacks either a feature or an idea. I strongly recommend that you think of an idea to solve your perceived problem.

Also, I really don't think CCP is going to do anything about this. Like the slogan says, "Eve is real". In real life, God doesn't come in and steal your uranium if you've managed to stockpile the world's supply. Maybe that's hyperbole, but it doesn't matter. The point is, EVE is the type of game that tries to encourage underhanded tactics like this (or at least I think and hope it does). They saw a chance, took it, and came out on top. You are free (and even encouraged) to do the same, by buying or building ships and modules you think will go up in value.


This isn't an "underhanded tactic" it was created by the people who develop the game and it has had a negative effect on the game and everyone who plays it.

Seriously... do you people have any comprehension or logic or do you just jump on the forum to trash people?

The only reason i posted it here was because i wasn't sure where to post it and as it is a "feature" of the game i decided to post it in the feature and idea discussion forum and whilst i might not have the solution it still belongs here.

You know... for people to discuss this feature of the game that is keeping every single player out of taking part in the market for this particular item.

I've noticed that despite everyone trashing me for posting the topic NOONE has posted a single logical reason as to why it should be this way other than suck it up, they earned it, you are an entitled noob and you are crying because you weren't around at the time.

You are all (few exceptions) pretty much morons and perfectly sum up the perception people have of this game.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2014-06-09 06:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
It's kind of funny how i'm being trashed because i'd like to produce and sell this item and at best make a couple of million isk per unit and probably sell a handful of them per week when my primary activity makes me a ~billion isk per day but i'm an entitled noob who wants everything given to me.

Yes i can make other things, yes i can do other stuff that isn't the problem. The problem is this messed up situation that prevents not only me but everyone from taking part in this particular part of the game not only for the last 2 years but for years to come.

And what is your answer to it? mocking me?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-06-09 06:47:03 UTC
OP are minerals you mine free?

I know this seems like an off topic post but it is an important question.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-06-09 06:51:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
OP are minerals you mine free?

I know this seems like an off topic post but it is an important question.


Really? where are you going with this?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-06-09 07:07:45 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
OP are minerals you mine free?

I know this seems like an off topic post but it is an important question.


Really? where are you going with this?

If they sell the ships at the build cost forom 2 years ago they will never make enough isk to build a replacement ship therefore they have to sell them at current build costs. The same will be true after the industry overhaul, all ships will cost more to make and you will have to sell them at the future costs inorder to continue building ships.

Example:

1 Ship 2 years ago costs 5 million to make
The same Ship now costs 25 million to make. If you sold your ship from 2 years ago for 5 million you would take a 20 million is loss on the next Ship you try to make.
After the industry overhaul that same Ship might cost 30 million and if you sell it for 25 million you are taking a loss, if you sell it for the 5 million from 2 years ago you are taking a huge loss.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#67 - 2014-06-09 09:25:09 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
OP are minerals you mine free?

I know this seems like an off topic post but it is an important question.


Really? where are you going with this?

If they sell the ships at the build cost forom 2 years ago they will never make enough isk to build a replacement ship therefore they have to sell them at current build costs. The same will be true after the industry overhaul, all ships will cost more to make and you will have to sell them at the future costs inorder to continue building ships.

Example:

1 Ship 2 years ago costs 5 million to make
The same Ship now costs 25 million to make. If you sold your ship from 2 years ago for 5 million you would take a 20 million is loss on the next Ship you try to make.
After the industry overhaul that same Ship might cost 30 million and if you sell it for 25 million you are taking a loss, if you sell it for the 5 million from 2 years ago you are taking a huge loss.


This guy get it! That is exactly what i was trying to convey.

I guess a lot of people completely miss that nuance.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#68 - 2014-06-09 09:53:13 UTC
Gospadin wrote:


Remember also that *no* prices in EVE are static (except for skillbooks) and the value of capital evolves over time, so while they're sitting on huge stocks of procurers due to their speculation, they're also unable to respond to changing markets because of the hundreds of billions in capital that is locked into that production.




skillbooks aren't static either.

NPC prices are weird ... something like

if $items_remain=0 then

if $cur_price <= $baseprice*2 then

$items_remain = 100
$cur_price = $cur_price * 1.1

(at DT)

if $items_remain >= $base_stack * 0.5 then

if $cur_price >= $baseprice * 0.5 then

$cur_price = $cur_price * 0.9


NOTE --> In reality, I think it only slides 10-20% in either direction, on more of a sliding scale, like corp standings to a faction used to (1/2 the difference between $current_stg and $calculated_standing, calculated daily at DT for a week).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#69 - 2014-06-09 15:09:42 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Gospadin wrote:


Remember also that *no* prices in EVE are static (except for skillbooks) and the value of capital evolves over time, so while they're sitting on huge stocks of procurers due to their speculation, they're also unable to respond to changing markets because of the hundreds of billions in capital that is locked into that production.




skillbooks aren't static either.

NPC prices are weird ... something like

if $items_remain=0 then

if $cur_price <= $baseprice*2 then

$items_remain = 100
$cur_price = $cur_price * 1.1

(at DT)

if $items_remain >= $base_stack * 0.5 then

if $cur_price >= $baseprice * 0.5 then

$cur_price = $cur_price * 0.9


NOTE --> In reality, I think it only slides 10-20% in either direction, on more of a sliding scale, like corp standings to a faction used to (1/2 the difference between $current_stg and $calculated_standing, calculated daily at DT for a week).


Really? haha learn something every day.
Alnegh
Bears without Cares
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#70 - 2014-06-09 15:25:26 UTC
I read the first page. Saw 4 more pages and had a good laugh.

This is a ridiculous notion, somebody stockpiled before a change and you want ccp to take it all away?

How about you stop posting here and go awox somebody that has a stockpile, then you can sell them for however much you want.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-06-09 15:54:28 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:


I've already given you my arguments as to why and now you answer me with a question? so you don't actually have a reason as to why things should remain as they are other than "they earned it"

Well i have an easy answer for your question.

Because the patch change and resulting stockpile of ships has removed the possibility for people to produce an item in the game for years and most likely for years to come and so far your only argument to defend the status quo is because they "earned" it.


It's not important to the welfare of the game that you be able to produce procurers profitably.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-06-09 15:56:53 UTC
The stockpiles that are being steadily deepened in preparation for Crius are the only reason there will even be a market after Crius.

Crius is going to be extremely painful for pretty much everyone.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-06-09 15:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Anna Jameson wrote:


i said why should it be out of reach of those wishing to dip their toes into production


Who the **** "dips their toes" into production with procurers? The BPO costs, what, 1.4 billion at NPC prices?

There are hundreds upon hundreds of items you can build. There are a handful with profitability that was borked by tieracide. Get over it, because all of the potential "fixes" are vastly worse than the problem itself, especially given that, on a long enough time line, the problem will literally resolve itself.

Anna Jameson wrote:


as i pointed out with mineral inflation even if they were reprocessed the people who invested in them would still make a profit, considering it costs more for me to buy the minerals than the price of the the procurer i'm not entirely sure why they aren't reprocessing them themselves... i'm new to industry so perhaps the mechanics are escaping me.


So, here's a novel idea. Maybe you should shut your newbie cake hole and do an iota of research before stomping in here and demanding that changes be made on your behalf?

The reason they're not reprocessing them is because the extra material requirements were added as... well, "extra materials". This is a special class of materials that isn't affected by material efficiency, and is NOT recovered on reprocessing.

This was done specifically to prevent people holding, e.g., procurers from simply reprocessing them after the patch, thereby generating a metric shitton of free minerals. Given the extremely liquid nature of minerals compared to the fairly stagnant procurer market, I guarantee you they wish they could do precisely that - it would be much more efficient to unload the same value in the form of minerals than as procurers.


Quote:
you know what, i'm done with this thread. You people are the reason this game cant keep players. Because it caters to people like you.


Explain why it would be of any particular importance for a new player to be able to get into, specifically, Procurer manufacturing, given the following:

-It's a very expensive BPO.
-Procurers move low volume, even at the present-day, steeply-discounted surplus inventory price.
-There are hundreds of other markets that can be entered more easily, and with a far quicker turnaround on your investment.


Finally: Where is your feature or idea, here? This is F&I. Got an idea? Let's hear it. So far all you have done is whine.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/