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Industry expansion - Industry problem

Author
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-06-08 22:05:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They did earn it. They certainly have more right to it than you do.They earned it and they have a right to it.



That is your argument. They earned it by being present in the game two years ago and taking advantage of a patch.

If the government raises taxes on car sales but exempts everyone from the tax who produced a car at a certain date that doesn't mean you earned it and if you produced a thousand cars before that law came into effect, exempting you from the tax that doesn't mean you earned it or that you have the right to a monopoly on the car industry because of it.

You took advantage and that is not an example of capitalism.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

And it does not, by the way, make it impossible for you to produce Procurers. Merely impossible for you to produce them at a profit for yourself

And like I said several times already, this situation exists all across the game, and CCP is completely fine with it.


Oh look another strawman. I never said it was impossible for me to produce procurers.

I'm fine with not being able to produce items for profit. What i'm not fine with is the effect those changes had on the game, you didn't earn it and you aren't entitled to it.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yes, you do. You are literally arguing that people who have cornered a market be severely punished for doing so. And all because it makes you sad that you can't build Procurers to sell.


Yay another strawman.

I never said they should be severely punished.

They didn't corner a market, they took advantage of a patch change, state interference is preventing capitalism from working. You seem to like capitalism so i don't understand why you would be opposed to the abolishment of this "state tax" and let capitalism take over.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

No, I'm not working against capitalism. That would be you, since you are demanding that CCP alter the game to allow you to compete when you otherwise could not.


You are working against capitalism because CCP made changes that has made capitalism impossible. Instead of the tax being made on the point of sale it was made on the point of production which prevents capitalism from working because there is a huge stockpile of goods that are exempt from this tax.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You seriously need to get over yourself.


Oh look an adhominen, i wonder who has ran out of arguments.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#22 - 2014-06-08 22:08:00 UTC
"Someone else has that toy, and they won't share. Take it from them and give it to me!"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-06-08 22:10:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You said "why should this ship be out of reach for everyone..."
.


No i didn't

i said why should it be out of reach of those wishing to dip their toes into production
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-06-08 22:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"Someone else has that toy, and they won't share. Take it from them and give it to me!"


You've clearly ran out of arguments.

Its also pretty funny because im not the one who doesn't want to share lol
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#25 - 2014-06-08 22:12:44 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You said "why should this ship be out of reach for everyone..."
.


No i didn't

i said why should it be out of reach of those wishing to dip their toes into production


Nope.


Anna Jameson wrote:

Why? why should this ship be out of reach for everyone for years and most likely for years to come just because some people took advantage of a patch years ago?

Dont tell me there is nothing they can do. There is.


Your exact post.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#26 - 2014-06-08 22:12:59 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You said "why should this ship be out of reach for everyone..."
.


No i didn't

i said why should it be out of reach of those wishing to dip their toes into production

Ship production is usually not for those just getting their feet wet in production.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#27 - 2014-06-08 22:14:39 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"Someone else has that toy, and they won't share. Take it from them and give it to me!"


You've clearly ran out of arguments.

Its also pretty funny because im not the one who doesn't want to share lol


I own one Procurer. I have no stake in this, I merely hate it when entitlement stuffed people like you think they can demand to have something taken away from other people because it makes you mad they got it first.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-06-08 22:15:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Your exact post.


Yes, everyone interested in production.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-06-08 22:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"Someone else has that toy, and they won't share. Take it from them and give it to me!"


You've clearly ran out of arguments.

Its also pretty funny because im not the one who doesn't want to share lol


I own one Procurer. I have no stake in this, I merely hate it when entitlement stuffed people like you think they can demand to have something taken away from other people because it makes you mad they got it first.


If all you are here for is to throw around baseless accusations of entitlement without addressing the concerns i raise then i suggest you go elsewhere because you are contributing nothing to the thread and just trying to inflate your already over-inflated ego.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#30 - 2014-06-08 22:18:43 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Your exact post.


Yes, everyone interested in production.


And that's not what you said.

What you were doing, was trying to use hyperbole to bolster your exceedingly shaky argument.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2014-06-08 22:20:12 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:

If all you are here for is to throw around baseless accusations of entitlement without addressing the concerns i raise i suggest you go elsewhere because you are contributing nothing to the thread and just trying to inflate your already overinflated ego.


Your concerns have no merit. The answer is "Too bad, deal with it."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-06-08 22:20:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Your exact post.


Yes, everyone interested in production.


And that's not what you said.

What you were doing, was trying to use hyperbole to bolster your exceedingly shaky argument.


No i wasn't when i used the term "everyone" i was speaking specifically of the people who might be interested in manufacturing, industry and the economy.

It wasn't hyperbole, i wasn't talking about the person who buys a bpc and builds their own procuruer just because they want to.

Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-06-08 22:21:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:

If all you are here for is to throw around baseless accusations of entitlement without addressing the concerns i raise i suggest you go elsewhere because you are contributing nothing to the thread and just trying to inflate your already overinflated ego.


Your concerns have no merit. The answer is "Too bad, deal with it."



Here is your over inflated ego at work again. Just because you disagree based on some yet unknown argument other than "they earned it and are entitled to it " doesn't mean my concerns have no merit.

You've already descended to adhominem arguments so it's clear for everyone to see you have no merit.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2014-06-08 22:23:04 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:

No i wasn't when i used the term "everyone" i was speaking specifically of the people who might be interested in manufacturing, industry and the economy.


No, you weren't specifically saying anything. It was a generalization.

Quote:

It wasn't hyperbole, i wasn't talking about the person who buys a bpc and builds their own procuruer just because they want to.



You ought to have said that then.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-06-08 22:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You ought to have said that then.


Did you even read my opening post?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2014-06-08 22:31:24 UTC
Anna Jameson wrote:

Here is your over inflated ego at work again. Just because you disagree based on some yet unknown argument other than "they earned it and are entitled to it " doesn't mean my concerns have no merit.


It does, actually. When I told you what the reason was behind it, you immediately moved into "we have to take away their stuff!" mode.

Fairness does not mean equality of result.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2014-06-08 22:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Why should a patch change take away everyone's stock of ships? Like I said, this is not a unique situation, there are plenty of small markets dominated by a particular group. Goonswarm, for example, is widely reputed to have control of nearly 90% of Hulk production in the entire game.

You picked a terrible example since it's also widely reputed that the reason they have that control is due to a virtual monopoly on T2 BPO's for the Hulk which due to the massive advantage they have over invention currently has meant they can price out everyone else who has no chance to get a hulk BPO. Which is not Capitalism since there is no chance to get a Hulk BPO unless a current holder sells, which normally means they are cashing out at a crazy inflated price compared to what they bought it at. Especially now with all the rumours about them.

That said, the basic argument over the Procurer is valid. The stocks simply need to get used up one way or another, I also suggest using large numbers of Catalysts to gank them (I don't occasionally build runs of Catalysts, honest)

As a note though I actually found ship production the easiest market to get into, since T1 ships have a real market now. Just slim margins. Modules were far trickier to try and find a T1 that could turn profit, and T2 requires invention which is much harder to get started on.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-06-08 22:41:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anna Jameson wrote:

Here is your over inflated ego at work again. Just because you disagree based on some yet unknown argument other than "they earned it and are entitled to it " doesn't mean my concerns have no merit.


It does, actually. When I told you what the reason was behind it, you immediately moved into "we have to take away their stuff!" mode.

Fairness does not mean equality of result.


You haven't told me any reason behind it other than things i already know and i never once said "we have to take away their stuff".

You're just making stuff up in your head now.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#39 - 2014-06-08 22:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gospadin
To the OP:

Eve is essentially libertarian paradise, and everything in the game is fundamentally PVP. With very few limitations, players make the rules, and everyone is responsible for their own actions. Market manipulation is relatively common. Whether you're grinding missions to compete for isk or shooting players or infiltrating a corporation, you're competing. Every time you 0.01 your sell order, you're competing with another player to move your goods more quickly than theirs.

CCP has stated they will not interfere with these interactions.

Equal opportunity (what you're asking for) is that you have the chance to compete. You did have the chance to compete, you just chose not to start playing when they did. They spent hundreds or thousands of hours building a stockpile of stuff thinking it'd be valuable in the future. They made a play on the market, and they succeeded. Yes, you're now closed out of the procurer market. Boo hoo.

You have several options:
1. blow up their POS where they're doing their manufacturing
2. intercept their supply routes to change the cost dynamics

If they've already moved their entire stocks to Jita for sale already, then you don't have a lot of options, nor should you.

Now, while you said you wanted equal opportunity, recognize that every minute of every day, you have the exact same opportunity as everyone else in the game at that instant. Every minute you're complaining that you can't profitably build procurers, is a minute you're not researching/manufacturing something else that is profitable. Find a market, figure out your angle. I know a lot of folks who have bootstrapped themselves into multi-billion-isk manufacturing corps in just the last six months of game time with a few friends.

They have what it takes to be successful in the competitive world of EVE where everything is PVP, whether you realize it or not.

I believe that if you treat manufacturing like scripted L4 missions in a raven, you'll be forever disappointed.

--gos

PS: Yes, the extra minerals thing was a hack, but that gets fixed in 5 weeks. There will be major changes in industry dynamics, a decrease in the safety of blueprints, and another major opportunity for clever/creative/ruthless/intelligent people to get ahead of their competition. Don't miss your chance.
Anna Jameson
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-06-08 22:50:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Jameson
Gospadin wrote:
CCP has stated they will not interfere with these interactions.


Yeah... that is kind of the problem.

They did and as a result of it i cant enter the procurer market because people took advantage of the changes they made and they made enough that it still has an effect on the market 2 almost 3 years later.