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Ambulation in New Eden

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Grivan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-06-08 15:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
{Redacted trolling comments. -- ISD LackOfFaith}

Firstly I'd just like to clarify terms a bit, this post is about ambulation (moving around and interacting as an avatar), while Walking in Stations (WiS) is part of that, this is not exclusively about making a case for WiS. The reason why I'm making yet another thread on this topic is because I believe the whole discussion into ambulation has become bogged down in rehashing the same ideas and arguments and in some stand out negative events (incarna, golden ammo and WoD) – which means that in every thread there are variants of “WiS is dead”, “it would ruin EVE”, “it won't work”, “it would add nothing” and “it has no gameplay”.

Before we jump straight to those conclusions I'd like to make a quick case for being open minded around ambulation in EVE. If we assume (rightly or wrongly) that Pay to Win microtransactions won't become the norm and that (as I feel is vitally important) no ambulation based features devalue or remove features currently part of the FiS package then we are left with the two major problems: amount of effort being used to create space barbies (with no gameplay value) and the lack of any gameplay value. Legion deals with the former and old fashioned creativity with the latter.

Legion – a PC based, PvP shooter set in New Eden using stations and indoor environments would require those art assets. If whatever technology is used to create that engine (Unreal 4?) is then used to re-do EVE's ambulation technology then it would simply be a case of importing the same art assets? My point being that, for Legion to exist, there is surely going to be a lot of art that EVE can use (or collaborate on) which reduces the development time significantly. Plus a lot of the technology for the actual transitions has already been created for Incarna.

So we just need content. Something worthwhile, new and different for New Eden pilots to do outside of their ship which makes the effort in creating a uniform ambulation technology and environment for both Legion and EVE worthwhile. However, as no ambulation features should devalue or remove FiS features, neither should EVE features devalue or remove Legion features – that would mean that EVE pilots do not run around with guns.

I'm going to use two examples. One for pilots directly interacting with the environment (and Legion) and another involving more indirect interaction. First up, exploration:

Keep existing exploration the same (no devaluing), this area of exploration could be around stargate technology, or new T3's, or literally anything. New exploration ships have 1-3 clone vats which Legion mercs can jump into, you dock up with a likely looking facility and you and your new friends go looking for the loot; there can be different objectives:
Hack a network, requiring you to stay in one place and download information
To make it more difficult, sometimes you may need to power it up first
Collect hardware as fast as possible and get out as fast as possible
Variations can include amount of information/hardware needed, whether you know where to go, etc.

And of course, different challenges:
Rogue drones
Automated defence systems
Other players
Self destructs
Your own mercs shooting and teabagging your corpse

You'd be the team leader, directing your squad, but unarmed, while your mercs protect you. It could be a bit like a horror survival - epic lighting, sense of helplessness, disorientation, fast paced - and of course, death is death.

The second idea I have (and I'm sure there are plenty of others) is locking down/accessing station storage when a system changes hands. Simply put, when a system and station change hands, the owners of the system wipe the access codes to their hangars, which takes 5 minutes. Once that is done, no one except the owners (on reclaiming the station) can access the material. The conquering alliance needs to send in mercs to seize the control room within 5 minutes, the defenders can of course field their own mercs. This idea is less about direct ambulation for EVE players, but building a meaningful link between EVE and Legion (and creating a lot of station interior art!)

I'm not putting those two ideas out as the best, or essential ideas for EVE and Legion. I'm using them as examples of how gameplay can interact between the two games, using ambulation which generates a new career or playstyle for EVE players (without devaluing or removing gameplay from existing FiS or standard Legion features). If the game ships with 2-3+ of these links then it becomes much easier to justify the creation of WiS features as much of the art and tech would have been developed for the gameplay features.

The final, most common, argument against all of this is “EVE is a spaceship game”. Which is, frankly, the worst argument out there. EVE is a spaceship game because all the existing features take place in a spaceship (except some elements of trading, industry, PI, espionage and politics) – NOT because EVE is a spaceship game, there is a difference. If a new feature comes out, which involves you walking around somewhere and doing something meaningful, which suits the ambulation model, fits into the world and principles of New Eden, then it is a good feature. Defending the status quo because it is the status quo is the fastest way to stagnation – however, I am not advocating ambulation blindly, I do think it needs to fit into EVE – and the development of Legion is the perfect (and possibly only) time to do it properly.
Jade Blackwind
#2 - 2014-06-08 16:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Edit: Actually, I've read the entirety of this post. *Sighs heavily* You know, OP, that your thread will be trolled to hell and back and then locked, what do you wish to achieve by it? To spark an intelligent discussion on the merits of WiS?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#3 - 2014-06-08 16:18:31 UTC
There is no need to read something when its clearly in the wrong section of the forums

So don't call others out on being lazy minded when you are obviously unable to grasp the purpose of the Ideas & Features section

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Mana Shian
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-06-08 16:22:16 UTC
A well thought out and interesting read. Thank you for taking the time to write something like this up.

Regardless, it belongs in F&I.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-06-08 16:45:05 UTC
@OP:
I think the most important point you are making is, that walking around in your human avatars should have meaningful gameplay which fits into EVE and adds to it, but isn't required unless you are interested in doing it. And that's pretty tough, imo.

I like the exploration example, but I am not sure how much fun it'd be to act as weaponless leader of Legion players. What special qualities would the capsuleer have as leader that makes up for the lack of weapons and can't be done by the Legion players and still is fun?
It'd probably make more sense if you could just "jump into Legion gameplay" once you arrived at your exploration site. I suppose that'd be quite the technological challenge, though.

Another possibility I was thinking about was some sort of black market and smuggling gameplay on stations. Something illegal which should not be done using the galnet and "official" channels but rather in person and hidden.
But here I got stuck, to be honest. What would the gameplay be? Some sort of puzzle game dodging surveillance until a meet up with either NPC or other players as trading partner can happen? I kinda doubt most players would like this.

Here, too, I think the best chance, even if it may be quite a bit in the future, for something like this to happen would be a seamless integration of Legion gameplay, so it'd actually be a shooter gameplay, maybe with emphasis on tactics.

And all this doesn't mean that you can't have areas simply for social interaction, with nothing to gain gameplay-wise which would legitimate making it safe, according to the risk/reward thing: Don't allow any weapons in those areas. Brawling could be allowed but bouncers (from CONCORD, haha. ... just kidding) will come and throw you out if you attack someone who doesn't fight back or something like that.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#6 - 2014-06-08 17:04:07 UTC
I have replied on a lot of these threads. And the biggest issue with them is that most people who are anti WiS are so because they forgot history.


So small reminder: When incarnia came out, you had the workings of a **** storm. The pot was already boiling, and just waiting to explode and boil over. If one of the following had happened on its own, it would of been ok. the fact that all happened at the same time, caused the explosion, most of all was the last piece, which was the icing on the cake.

1) The incarnia we got, was no where close tot he ambulation they had been working on for 5 years (i remember presentations as far back as 06, and they had a whole panel at fan fest 07) what we got felt like a waste of resources. And it was too buggy (cards melting) If it was just this, players would of shrugged it off.

2) Incarnia had no meaningful in anyway game play. You were stuck in a room. if it was just this, we would of been like 'well yet another dead feature'

3) you could not turn it off. This annoyed a lot of people.

4) The NeX, again if alone would not of been a big deal.

5) All the crap in the NeX store was expensive.

6) Monicals that cost $70

7) Old systems in eve had had been left to roit.

8) and finally... the icing on the cake... "Greed is Good" memo leak.

A few of these and the players would of shrugged it off. Hell if we had the ability to turn OFF CQ form the start, you prolly would of seen less riots. But that's not what happened. Everything combined showed players that not only did ccp waste development time, resources, to make something that was not optional, and really added nothing at all to eve, but the vision they wanted was not the path we wanted.

CCP learned for this mistake, and are doing way better in terms of goals. People lost there jobs, WoD got canned, and the last idea of this crappy era, Dust 514 (blotched roll out) is being corrected. WiS NEEDS to be addressed eventually. Its now CCP's old track record. Half assed thought out idea, that is 1/10 of what we were promised, then left to roit while they moved on to shines.

It will need to be finished, eventually. But it needs to be meaningful. And ATM, the best way will be when EvE Unity happens. WiS can be the link that combines Legion, EvE, and Valk. and can open many new game play elements, if people so chose to use them. But imo, you will not see anything done with WiS UNTIL things like pos' corps and alliances, and sov are corrected. Until then, WiS will remain the black sheep feature of eve that no one really wants. We all want WiS, but we want the space part to be good, and WiS to have meaning. If it has meaning, people will accept and embrace it. till then... these threads are pointless.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Grivan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-06-08 17:17:40 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
@OP:
I think the most important point you are making is, that walking around in your human avatars should have meaningful gameplay which fits into EVE and adds to it, but isn't required unless you are interested in doing it. And that's pretty tough, imo.

I like the exploration example, but I am not sure how much fun it'd be to act as weaponless leader of Legion players. What special qualities would the capsuleer have as leader that makes up for the lack of weapons and can't be done by the Legion players and still is fun?
It'd probably make more sense if you could just "jump into Legion gameplay" once you arrived at your exploration site. I suppose that'd be quite the technological challenge, though.

Another possibility I was thinking about was some sort of black market and smuggling gameplay on stations. Something illegal which should not be done using the galnet and "official" channels but rather in person and hidden.
But here I got stuck, to be honest. What would the gameplay be? Some sort of puzzle game dodging surveillance until a meet up with either NPC or other players as trading partner can happen? I kinda doubt most players would like this.

Here, too, I think the best chance, even if it may be quite a bit in the future, for something like this to happen would be a seamless integration of Legion gameplay, so it'd actually be a shooter gameplay, maybe with emphasis on tactics.

And all this doesn't mean that you can't have areas simply for social interaction, with nothing to gain gameplay-wise which would legitimate making it safe, according to the risk/reward thing: Don't allow any weapons in those areas. Brawling could be allowed but bouncers (from CONCORD, haha. ... just kidding) will come and throw you out if you attack someone who doesn't fight back or something like that.



DaReaper wrote:
[snip] till then... these threads are pointless.


The other main point of my thread is that this kind of work should happen now, while Legion is in development, and is why I think the thread isn't pointless. That link has to be built in from the ground up, with a clear plan of how EVE is going to use ambulation and how the two games will integrate.

Riyria you raise a good point about how a lot of the meaningful gameplay should be part of Legion with a seamless transition from one game to the next - I wonder how technically challenging that is? We can already transition from pod to CQ, if it's all on the same server and built to do so from the ground up, is it any different?

It's not just people forgetting history that makes them anti-WiS, its because its an easy troll target and because people tend to see problems and then decide it can't be done, instead of looking at solutions. Look at the first page of this thread and you'll see those same names in every thread trolling or making inane comments - I do have faith that there are people reading these forums who are capable of thought outside their own little bubble and it'd be great if something positive comes out of this.

I'm not pretending to know anything about game design, but the principles of this kind of project are the same everywhere you go. Work out what you want it to do in the end and then design for that goal throughout - if ambulation isn't put into EVE alongside Legion then it will be a (potential) nightmare porting it in once Legion is complete.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#8 - 2014-06-08 17:53:57 UTC
Grivan wrote:
“WiS is dead”, “it would ruin EVE”, “it won't work”, “it would add nothing” and “it has no gameplay”.

Before we jump straight to those conclusions I'd like to make a quick case for being open minded around ambulation in EVE.



But WiS IS dead, or in deep cryo at least. I don't know which part of this you don't understand:
- CCP took a $26mil hit last year
- 100+ employees got the boot in the last 6 months, most of them working on Avatar based gameplay (since WoD devs were "borrowed" to work on WiS in EVE)
- Team Avatar is disbanded

The idea and potential of WiS is there and its great, but there are simply no resources to pull it off in the near future. I mean, what needs to be said and by who in order to get the clear message that WiS is in the deep freezer now and that it's not coming to life any time soon? That's years I'm talking about. CCP explicitly said it when they disbanded Team Avatar, yet somehow there are still forum posts about it like it's something that can be pulled out of the pocket and added to the game.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#9 - 2014-06-08 18:02:35 UTC
Grivan wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
@OP:
I think the most important point you are making is, that walking around in your human avatars should have meaningful gameplay which fits into EVE and adds to it, but isn't required unless you are interested in doing it. And that's pretty tough, imo.

I like the exploration example, but I am not sure how much fun it'd be to act as weaponless leader of Legion players. What special qualities would the capsuleer have as leader that makes up for the lack of weapons and can't be done by the Legion players and still is fun?
It'd probably make more sense if you could just "jump into Legion gameplay" once you arrived at your exploration site. I suppose that'd be quite the technological challenge, though.

Another possibility I was thinking about was some sort of black market and smuggling gameplay on stations. Something illegal which should not be done using the galnet and "official" channels but rather in person and hidden.
But here I got stuck, to be honest. What would the gameplay be? Some sort of puzzle game dodging surveillance until a meet up with either NPC or other players as trading partner can happen? I kinda doubt most players would like this.

Here, too, I think the best chance, even if it may be quite a bit in the future, for something like this to happen would be a seamless integration of Legion gameplay, so it'd actually be a shooter gameplay, maybe with emphasis on tactics.

And all this doesn't mean that you can't have areas simply for social interaction, with nothing to gain gameplay-wise which would legitimate making it safe, according to the risk/reward thing: Don't allow any weapons in those areas. Brawling could be allowed but bouncers (from CONCORD, haha. ... just kidding) will come and throw you out if you attack someone who doesn't fight back or something like that.



DaReaper wrote:
[snip] till then... these threads are pointless.


The other main point of my thread is that this kind of work should happen now, while Legion is in development, and is why I think the thread isn't pointless. That link has to be built in from the ground up, with a clear plan of how EVE is going to use ambulation and how the two games will integrate.

Riyria you raise a good point about how a lot of the meaningful gameplay should be part of Legion with a seamless transition from one game to the next - I wonder how technically challenging that is? We can already transition from pod to CQ, if it's all on the same server and built to do so from the ground up, is it any different?

It's not just people forgetting history that makes them anti-WiS, its because its an easy troll target and because people tend to see problems and then decide it can't be done, instead of looking at solutions. Look at the first page of this thread and you'll see those same names in every thread trolling or making inane comments - I do have faith that there are people reading these forums who are capable of thought outside their own little bubble and it'd be great if something positive comes out of this.

I'm not pretending to know anything about game design, but the principles of this kind of project are the same everywhere you go. Work out what you want it to do in the end and then design for that goal throughout - if ambulation isn't put into EVE alongside Legion then it will be a (potential) nightmare porting it in once Legion is complete.



Except its not. WiS is not even NEEDED for legion. Except for legion. As we are clones anyway we don;t even need to leave our ships to jump into a legion body. thats the point. Another point, why waste more dev time, finishing something so it could link to another game, if a) the other game is not going to link to eve in a meaningful way form day one. b) Legion is not even a real game yet and c) Legion coudl flop.

You thought the summer of rage was bad? What do you think would happen if the devs said 'oh byw, rememebr how we said we were gonna fix pos' and corp stuff and sov? Yea we back burnered that to fix WiS and after a yera of work we canned legion which is why we were doing wis... sorry about that, we are going back to fixing space..'

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#10 - 2014-06-08 20:15:28 UTC
WiS is not a bad idea.
As always, meaningful content is key. OP's ideas feel a bit half baked (sorry).
Technological synergy is obvious but was not enough to save another game (WoD).
Existing mini games show that CCP has to learn (loot spew, hacking game).

Voila, it is not that difficult, is it?

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#11 - 2014-06-08 20:31:36 UTC
Altessa Post wrote:
WiS is not a bad idea.
As always, meaningful content is key. OP's ideas feel a bit half baked (sorry).
Technological synergy is obvious but was not enough to save another game (WoD).
Existing mini games show that CCP has to learn (loot spew, hacking game).


WoD was never released, so I don't see what you are driving at

Loot spew was removed and CCP admitted it was bad, and now exploration is better than its ever been

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#12 - 2014-06-08 20:54:56 UTC
It is way too ambitious and I guarantee CCP will screw it up, so no. While I didn't mind the 1st idea to a degree, though seems meaningless to "lead" Legion soldiers, might as well just fight. The 2nd idea I don't care for but don't really understand, might be that I just woke up.

For WiS CCP needs to take baby steps, but baby steps in functionality. However most content will probably need to be "fluff" since it is the easiest not to screw up.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#13 - 2014-06-08 21:25:57 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


WoD was never released, so I don't see what you are driving at

Loot spew was removed and CCP admitted it was bad, and now exploration is better than its ever been


From the viewpoint an IT company, Dust and WoD, plus some acquisitions on the road looked really nice. Technology developed (or bought) could be used in several games. This reduces cost. In our line of work, we call this synergy. Yet, it never happened. The OP pointed towards reuse of technology and we already know that this is not key.
This is what I am driving at.

You see why we can never have small crisp posts and need endless text walls?

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.
Adunh Slavy
#14 - 2014-06-08 21:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Grivan wrote:

... EVE and Legion ...


This is the most likely case IMO. If you want to walk around, poof you are in the station in Legion Mode, (Go back to the launcher and start legion as character that just docked.). This would give all the reason to create stations and what not.

My guess though is ... CCP is going to use that "forth mode" of 'clones' as a huge "slush tank" disguised as some sort of fictional cosmic mainframe and network, where by characters can poof their consciousness all over the map between game modes. This will let CCP fudge and white wash all the logistics and logistics content from the experience, so they can focus on the core game play of the other two modes, Legion and Valkyrie.

That would be a shame, as it would be rather theme-parky.

But, considering some past efforts ... Legion is vapor and so is Valkyrie, and so was WIS and Dust will resemble its name sooner or later by all accounts. The only thing to came out of all of that was, a vanity shop.

I agree with your sentiment, but do not hold your breath.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#15 - 2014-06-08 22:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
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Thread cleaned up as per the above rules. It is also being moved to F&ID. A couple of notes:


  • Discussion of whether a thread should or should not be moved is discussion of moderation and is not permitted.
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  • As the topic of discussion is "ambulation" gameplay, discussion of TL;DRs is off-topic.


Please stay on topic, civil, and constructive.

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Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-06-09 00:29:15 UTC
I saw a thing on TV by this Japanese girl who was really caught up in 2nd Life.
I tried it out. It crashed like crazy, looked just awful and was basically chat channels with avatars.
ALL of those people could be doing their furry / autist / social thing in stations, in their quarters, generally immune to pvp and it would be a great niche in a spaceships game.
If they wanted isk or to get anything done, they would have to enter into the risk/reward game, dancing on tabletops just won't cut it. Spaceship politics messing with their comms, clothing and furniture availability etc would make them interesting furniture, cargo and/or scenery in an otherwise conflict driven hyper capitalistic spaceships experience.
The leet pvpers forget the romance of travel, the impact of this game's beauty. Get that demographic all into stations, making environments, selling stuff ingame and most of all PAYING SUBS TO CCP.
Quick, before somebody else does.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#17 - 2014-06-09 09:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Saint Germain
I thought they could try out a kind of middle ground, using EVE Gate. There could be chatrooms that players can access through EVE Gate, without using the EVE client. Players could then chat with other players who are docked in the same station. If there was an interest in this, then it would be a good sign that players would use a similar system with 3D ambulation content.

I didn't assume that these chatrooms would take the place of in-game local chat, but if they did they could certainly relieve some of the spambot pressure from busy systems. I think that CCP don't want to introduce an 'EVE LIte' type client that allows players to actually play the game without using the EVE client, but who knows, maybe times have changed.

Anyway, it would be cool to log in to My-EVE-book-Space from work and chat a bit with whoever happens to be docked at the same station as me, maybe arrange some trades, or a roam or something.