Player Features and Ideas Discussion

What I'm wondering is why none of you whining about the supposed nerf now ever bothered to log onto sisi and test the changes you knew were coming?

I knew what was going to happen to the rattlesnake, and sold mine pre-patch, because I took 20 minutes to throw one together on the test server and test it.

None of this was a surprise, and you've already had months to whine about this pre-patch.

The failure is your own, not this change.

And more DPS. Those each have over 700 DPS. 770 with 3 DDA's.

This is basically what the entire argument regarding the rattlesnake changes boils down to in the end. Also why CCP stopped paying attention to the pirate battleship rebalance thread.

Yes, yes, ... Cutting the drones down to less then half for a Battleship never seemed right and I was told the argument about server load was never an issue in regards to the 'Hero Drone' feature. Concerning the servers, a change like this doesn't make sense anyway, to cut the number of active drones down for the 3 least popular and used drone ships isn't where I would ahve started.

But to keep this a suggestion thread, here is something I would have loved to see:

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
+ 1 active Drone
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
-50% bonus from Drone Damage Amplifiers
(drone effectiveness with 3 DDAs and 5 drones is about 12.5, with this change it would be 13.0, a slight buff)

And also, adding missile damage to the Gallente part is like spitting in Gallentes face, yes, gallente have superior missile weapon systems ... NOT. You can easily see that development on the Ratter has stopped dead a while ago and wasn't given further thought .The traits should have looked like this:

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
60% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)

Same effect, different story (well, not the same, I sneaked in a tiny 5% bonus to get to a basic 8.0 effectiveness over just keeping the old 7.5).

Need to run to work ... discuss you laterzzz.....

Cheers

And it's fairly punishing in regards to skillcap anyway, even without that.

The drone bonus being the role bonus helps lower skillpoint players getting into the ship.

Well,if that's true, then its quite silly and someone just lost respect from me.

At level 4 drone effectiveness is 6.8 under the new rule and was 7 under the old one, not much of any difference. And can you mention any ship weapon bonus that gives you the full bonus by just unlocking the ship type ? And I don't mean something like the 100% bonus damage for half the high slots (as balance) like with the Bhaalgorn.




Now that's just laughable. For the values just see above.

Not to mention that by Malcanis' Law the advantage for any new player looking for a Rattlesnake is negligible compared to the advantaged more experienced and richer players will get.
With just one skill point into the BS which takes about 20 minutes you will get the full bonus to the main weapon system - 6 neuts and max drone damage with almost no skill point investment surely nothing for a cheap (time) ganker alt with a big budget. And not to forget that with the drone changes not training those skills properly has even less an impact now.

On a more personal note, after 5 weeks of playing I looked for a ship that would fit my style, the Ratter, after the time to be able to sit in it, I could afford it ISK wise. And then I trained Gallente BS to 5 for the maximum damage bonus, that alone took 32 days total. I planned it, it was worth it, I did it gladly. Hearing these lame excuses to get ppl into a ship they are not supposed to fly in that fashion that early is just like spitting in players faces that put thought and effort in how they want to progress and commit.

'Making a ship popular by cutting down training time and boost appealing values just for sheet dps is a good way to ruin that ship type'



None has yet addressed the cuts regarding drones on a primary drone boat, all I hear is more 'shut up, because more dps'. Can anyone please comment on the negative changes for the drone role and judge it on its own merits and not use strawman arguments like drones got better, didn't need it anyway and missiles super duper°°?

Not true, Malcanis' Law does not exclude a benefit to new players that benefit usually just disappears in compaprison with what Veterans will be able to do with the same change.

And no, the bonuses don't rub me the wrong way, they are wrong, by lore, by role and implementation.



Well, that is a valid argument in regards to PvP balance, but has nothing to do with the criticism in regards with the drone role changes on its own. And I did not either agree with those changes in the first place.
On the other hand, like with a previous argument, you could have used all the other launchers before too. Just because nobody did it is not a fault of the Rattlesnake. And the bonus is 50% to 30% of the dps for 2 of 4 damage types, hardly turns a laughably useless and unpopular ship (by players and devs alike commented on) in the overpower class you make it to be.



Well, it is a strawman argument when you say the cuts to drones don't matter because they got buffed in the same patch. It would not be a strawman if all ships with drone bonuses would get cuts, none did, most 'touched' ships actually got more bandwidth and new bonuses they did not have before, which also negates the 'because of server' argument.
Saying a cut doesn't matter because it was of no use to a particular group, I consider even an argument from ignorance.
It feels strange, that most of the yay sayers commit one fallacy after another.

I don't mind being wrong and appreciate being called out when I am (already learned a few things I didn't know or had considered since I started this thread). But I get disappointed when people just talk past the issue or make assumptions because they are prejudiced towards any complaining post.

First of all I like to find and define the role of the Rattlesnake (in this case) and then discuss the balance issues. To argue from balance points and then see what is left and slap it on the ship - just because of what was left, is exactly how the jumbled bonuses look like that we got now.

I would say that it's role is that of an adaptable combined weapons platform. It's fairly similar in that regard to the Typhoon Fleet Issue.

Can we discuss the ship and it's merits on that statement?

You may see it as a Drone boat with missile support. But in reality it is a Ship with 2 Primary weapon systems, Both have almost the exact same DPS.
As for the double drone idea, Thats how ALL droneboats use to work. CCP changed it to the current method because it caused to much strain on the server and was all around a rather stupid idea.

Well, it was both, now it maybe the latter, sure its a matter of preference, but we now have a primary missile system pirate battleship in the Bhargest and the Nestor can't really be called a dual weapon system or drone ship since none really works out, it has too little bandwidth or too little powergrid for either to excel and shine.

And I do know how the drone ships used to work, I might be a young player, but I do read up on things and inform myself (part of the reason why I am here, you learn way more arguing then nodding your head and following orders or popular opinion).
And in regards to this, they brought back the old vampire system for the Blood Raiders didn't they ?!



(1st) Well if you don't care, don't assume others don't care. I personally don't care about high numbers and look how many e-peen swingers are whipping their things around and praise every inch they get more no matter the cost.

(2nd) And you are still missing the point, balance comes after the definition and basic design concept, not before and is totally independent of the features/traits themselves: I can balance and fine tune anything for PvP, if you can't - sad for you, don't assume others can't or won't consider.

(3rd) Well I am, but its hard to find, it took me some time to find this and commit to it with training and ISK investment, don't think that's easy. If it would be that easy I might care less and might not put such an effort into it. I am flirting with my Bhaalgorn a bit more though, managed to get the same tank and damage output on it, just missing some range and tracking... but that's beside the point.
And strange it having no PvP application and showing up in Alliance tournaments and New Eden Open, Wormholes and other places ... again your opinion, though I won't disagree that it has more now and probably will be used more in said situations too. But again, that's an issue of the balance in the end, not the basic design in itself, you are still neglecting that.

(4th) Yes to the first, is kind of obvious ,)
Primary Hybrid - Vindicator
Primary Missile - Bhargest
Primary Projectile - Machariel
Primary Lasers - Nightmare
Primary Drones (Now supposedly a full weapon system) - none, great
Now its your turn to argue your way out of that. Solving the problem of drones being not balanced enough for PvP isn't solved by adding more missile applications - basically what the whole issue is about and that has nothing to do with end value fine tuning or balance or PvE preference.

Your eyes see, what your mind wants to see; and you like so many others are stuck with that. And that points right at your last words assuming afk missing running and without active play or management. Proper drone management takes way more effort then any other weapon system, you are stuck with an old misconception. Hitting F1 for grouped lasers, hybrids, projectiles or missiles after ctrl-click, wow, now that's advanced weapon management, how can I learn that ? I am still trying to use menus via right click to navigate my drones wasting so many clicks, I feel like a noob now°°

Not

Good Day