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A message regarding reported layoffs at CCP

First post First post First post
Author
Marc Durant
#181 - 2014-06-06 18:26:49 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
flakeys wrote:
If you think that only happends in the tech industry you're verry wrong.Every company big or small has a jackass knowitall who knows nothing and shouldn't even have a job to start with.

That said every company needs some PShhhhhhhhhhhh

It's even a solid business model for some.

Management by Björk?


That would explain a lot, actually.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#182 - 2014-06-06 18:54:00 UTC
Tl;DR, but as a 10 year vet I believe it is my right, naw duty, to tell you my .02 isk.

A few things.

CCP had a single product in the beginning, ofc that was EvE. CCP decided to branch out into the CCG market, because WoW was doing it, so meh why the hades not. They partnered with White Wolf to make the cards and devlope the game. My guess is, during this relationship they got to talking about WoD and how cool it would be as an MMO. From a business prospective, CCP looked at that and went 'yea we could do that, we have eve... and we are not suppose to put all yoru eggs in one basket, so a second property might work' So CCP and white wolf prolly started talks of WW doing the CCG, and CCP doing the MMO... thouse talks then turned to, 'hell lets just buy out white wolf...' So they did.

At the time, and the market, it was nto a bad idea. Vampries were on a resurnece, as you had the Underwold Movies and the Blade movies out. Twilight was out in book form, True Blood books were popular. And there was a lacking of Vampire themed games. On paper this is brilliant. It would expand CCP's ip, and allow them to gain more revenue, and if EvE failed, they had asecond project to fall back on.

Come the fan fest (06 I think) announcement and its met with very mixed feelings. CCP prolly scratched there heads a bit, but shrugged it off and proceded.

I'll note this before I go on, I only skimmed the article, i'll do a through reading after work, and I do not work for ccp nor have I ever, so this is all random and nothing official.

Anyway, so they started development of World Of Darkness MMO, but not at first, as they had to first get the house of both companies in order. I'd guess full development started in 07. As I remember being at he 07 fan fets and walking with a couple who was telling me that CCP is hiring future GM's in Atlanta.

So, you have eve in development, WoD in development, and whatever issues come up (note have not read the articale) So eve CCP starts to get ambitious, and in 2009 come up witht he apocarypta expantion, as well as the idea for dust. (yes I remember an article as early as late 09 about the dust concept) So, and anyone who followed dev blogs at the time would know, ccp threw all hands on deck on eve, they even announced it a few times. This would slow WoD progress.

Somewhere in here, CCP scrapped the working idea for WiS and changed to the incarinia crap we got. This ment a reworking, so WoD delayed a bit.

CCP has this idea that Dust will be amazing and they can do this great stuff, and once WiS comes it will give them more money, blah blah blah. Incarina, decrepted old eve system, microtransactions and greed is good hit at once. CCP thinks they are doing well, but then the players give them a slap in the face.

Hilmar appoligies, and anyone who bitches that he did nto write the letter so its bad that he did not write it is an idiot. CEO's don't write letters, they have other people do it, and usually give feedback/read and change before they sign. This is how it works. Deal with it.

CCP refocuses and again pulls everyone off WoD.

2013. CCP is looking at other companies expanding there brands and thinking, hey if hey can do it (ala the CCG) They have dust ready to roll, and part of the brand extention is games on different platforms. So they show the 'eve everywere' presidentation, and launch dust...

Dust did not do as good as they thought, was it a failure? idk. But I think dust not hitting what they thought it would, and the reaction to EvE VR, ccp took a step back. And in that step back, they went 'yea we can prolly do this better' They also see other games coming. So CCP decides to regroup, first launching valk, then ending some 'eve everywhere stuff' then killing WoD, because well if your gonna focus on eve.. you don't need the other game. Then moving to legion on pc.

Its a good business move, to considate, its also risky. If eve falls, so does CCP. That's scary if you think of it. That's why dust was lack luster. If dust failed, then meh we stll got eve, but if they were interconnected....

IMO the layoffs and the article do;t bother me. CCP seems to be learning from their mistakes, which is good. The question now is, will they pull it off, or mess it up. Onlt time will tell, but from where I am standing, the future looks bright.

One more note, yes i'm an eve fan boi, i'll support eve till it closes or I die. I love CCP, always have. But I know they are human and can do stupid stuff. I just hiope they finally learned, finish things you start before moving on, and focus, always focus on what will get you more money, not waste time on shineys.

(will spell check later, at work, and my back hurts form standing)

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#183 - 2014-06-06 19:05:04 UTC
Quote:
Onlt time will tell, but from where I am standing, the future looks bright.


Why it looks bright? They are still doing the old tricks, multiple games in development and now even with less crew. I don't know where you see this light, but maybe you should not follow it.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#184 - 2014-06-06 19:44:55 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
Onlt time will tell, but from where I am standing, the future looks bright.


Why it looks bright? They are still doing the old tricks, multiple games in development and now even with less crew. I don't know where you see this light, but maybe you should not follow it.



Old eve systems being corrected and or finished that have been left collecting dust for years. Even in the road map, things that hamper game play are suppose to be looked at and fixed, leading up to expanding the universe.

Dust being moved to legion and deployed where it should of been in the first place, PC.

Valk coming to pc, giving people the dog fighting they require.

All games being linked together via a single account, so you can jump into each game with no issues.

Eventual linking of all games playing in one big universe. (This I think needs to happen from day one, but that's just me)

The ability with everything being on the same platform to easily patch and link the patches together.

Changing deployment cycles to in theory address issues and bring new things faster.

Specializing on a single ip, on a single platform.

What is there not to be optimistic about?

"They lost 21m last year lol" no, they did not really 'lose' 21m. They technically lost about 2m, which was from marketing, probly with the dust lunch and this to be expected. They made 10 min MORE in 2013 then they did in 2012 (look it up) And they 21m loss was actually covered by profits from the past 3 years (again look it up) As we know the 21m loss now is the cancelation of WoD, this is not really a loss, its a write off of stuff they are not going to use, this wasted time.

"Lol they are laying people off.." Right.. you kill a project you get rid of people you no longer need. WoD layoffs, Mobile layoffs as they don't need it, etc don't bother me. Its business, this stuff happens. could it mean something? sure. Does it matter? no not really.

"lol devs are jumping ship right and left" so? Companies have turn over, its normal. The reason you know about it, is people watch CCP's stuff like a damn hawk. Does it mean anything? Not really, people change jobs for all kinds of reasons. Could it mean something? Sure.

"lol EA is going to take over CCP" why? because an ex/ea employee recently became a board member? or got hired by ccp? Again people change jobs all the time. And Bill gates was on the board of apple for a while at one point. Steve jobs was on multiple boards, it really doesn't mean squat.

"But lol they are going to riot!" You have prolly never made friends at work have you? I'll tell you how this works. Co worker 1 gets tired of the current company and jumps ships to company a. His buddy a few months later gets tired of working for company b, and ask co worker a if company a has a job. Co worker a puts in a good word and co worker b gets a job at company a. This is normal, and nothing really to see here.

"lol the ccp management sucks man" How many companies have you worked for? ALL companies management sucks. ALL of them. Big and small. You will always have idiots, who have no idea what you do or how your job works, or get stupid ideas they think will be grand and can talk people into them. Does this mean anything? no, its business as usual.

Again, where is the 'writing on the wall?'

And to address something else. "CCP has not announced the sub numbers... the sky is falling" Lets use logic shall we? What game was released in 2013? Right dust. How much more money did ccp make last year if you ignore the write off? right about 10m. CCP made 74m in gave rev last year, and 2m from other stuff. that's about 10 min more then 2012. So if you had the sub numbers, and did basic math, you could work out how much money they got from dust. And my guess is, ether subs are super low, but I doubt that, as when they plundged after incarnia, everyone knew. OR and this is more likely, Dust was a disappointment. If it turned out that dust made like 3m last year from may till 12, which is 3m/7 as it was out for 7 months, you get 435k a month.. which is not very good. its not horrible, but... So that's my guess, they don't want us to know the exact breakdown of eve money vs dust.

I see no reason to be all 'omg the sky is falling' could it be? sure. but based ont eh evidence is it? no not really. Circumstancial means noda

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Marsha Mallow
#185 - 2014-06-06 19:52:03 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
And by the way, why is there so much hate towards CCP among the players in this thread? I really don't understand. If the reason for layoffs is true, and that is to focus strictly on development of EVE IP, that's completely OK.

But I understand that there is some sort of a sadistic desire by some of the forum trolls for CCP to fail.

I have been in EVE since "Red Moon Rising" and have been following these forums and the community (EN24, TheMittani, Kugu, failheap, subreddits, player blogs,...) all the time and I can say that CCP bashing and these types of trolls were not that present before Incarna.

Is this the sign of "bad management"? Is this a sign of "bad state of CCP as a company"? Is this a sign of "CCP/EVE is dying"?

I don't think so. Company who don't only listens but dedicates itself to actively discussing their product(s) with customers does not look like it's on the road of failure.

And I don't even want to start talking about an article from "The Guardian".

You make some good points (sorry to compress it slightly).

I don't agree that the tone is of CCP hating here. They've put faces to the Devs with player-Dev initiatives. It's not surprising people actually like some of them and dislike seeing them get the chop for what appear to be decisions outside their control. I responded more fully here, it was locked fair enough, but the comments stand. FunkyBacon expressed it better here, and I really don't get a sense of angst from his remarks either.

I really wouldn't mistake genuine concern from the playerbase over the direction of the company responsible for the game. It isn't coming across to me as vitriol, it's more disappointment and disquiet. Obviously interpreting comments varies, but I always get the sense people have a lot invested in EvE and want to see it succeed. They're at their most critical when they see glaring problems.

Re your comments about CCP bashing before Incarna, I can't agree there. I started in 2008 and almost immediately started reading Kugu and the tone there was highly critical over T20. It's not an Incarna phenomenon, that incident just escalated things to a wider portion of the playerbase (and to external media sites).

Direction wise I am happy at the moment, but I'm not sure how much of that is coming from the management team, and how much from the workers. Maybe this direction is too little too late. If they have a serious cultural problem in the company they need to address it. Consumers are a lot more switched on than they were 20 years ago, and some are reluctant to support companies they believe have poor ethical practices in a variety of respects. Most importantly, the treatment of their customers and employees. CCP appear to have improved their relationship with us, but if behind the scenes the problems persist they will leak in damaging ways. And some people will not engage with a company that behaves like that (including potential new players).

Re the Guardian I agree, it's not entirely reliable. Add that article to company direction and other reports though and it doesn't look good overall.

If we want to express concern, and sympathy to people losing their jobs, we can. It's upto CCP management to pay attention if that tone shifts to outright criticism. (Hint: I don't think they've ever done that at a senior level until the damage is done).

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Marsha Mallow
#186 - 2014-06-06 19:57:02 UTC
Also, WTB more Trippia art. WTF.

And, more importantly, gl to the Devs who lost their jobs, all the best o7

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#187 - 2014-06-06 19:59:45 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Also, WTB more Trippia art. WTF.
Ok, but it gets a bit more esoteric from here on…
Marsha Mallow
#188 - 2014-06-06 20:04:37 UTC
I'm torn between this and this at the moment.

I'd have smacked someone over the head with my own monitor if they'd made that remark to me. Luckily none of my managers have ever dared get that close and open their silly mouths. Although I have heard squishy deflating sounds a few times when I eyeball them.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#189 - 2014-06-06 20:24:10 UTC
The Guardian article reads like countless other articles on game failures. Could easily substitute any random game title for WoD. It's an age-old story. TBH, the writing was on the wall after 5 years and so little production. I think WW picked the wrong partner--they should've teamed-up with a larger developer with a proven track record. But, being such a niche product they probably should've found a way to stay independent.

A curious thing about the Guardian article (and I don't read that publication much) is the large number of unattributed quotes. Entire paragraphs are enclosed in quotes, but no discernible speaker. I saw one reference to an unnamed developer and then I guess I have to assume all other quotes are attributed to Blood? So an entire article based on the opinions and viewpoint of a disillusioned GM?

So, as always I feel bad for the folks scrambling to find employment, but as the article points out this is just par for the course in this industry.

And complaints about the quality of dinner rations and medical coverage getting cut? LoL, as my old friend John McClane once said: "Welcome to the party, pal."

Dum Spiro Spero

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#190 - 2014-06-06 20:29:47 UTC
KaarBaak wrote:
And complaints about the quality of dinner rations and medical coverage getting cut? LoL, as my old friend John McClane once said: "Welcome to the party, pal."

Why shouldn't he complain about getting less pay?
Thomas Harding
Doomheim
#191 - 2014-06-06 20:36:19 UTC
Othran wrote:
The Guardian article is spot on the money - its a description of a Scandinavian management culture which permits no dissent or criticism of management, and like the vast majority of Scandinavian companies that culture fails once they expand beyond their own country.


Really?

Leadership styles around the world
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#192 - 2014-06-06 21:01:22 UTC
"Eve is dying" implies that the players are leaving. I know that according to some there have been drops in the number of players, but there are many factors which could affect that. The first that comes to mind would be how many players have simply taken a short break from Eve to play Wildstar. I haven't played it, but I have heard it is a heavy PvP game, and I would think that the Eve playerbase would be comprised of people who are interested in PvP, and not just from one venue. In other words, they'll be back.

In regards to "eve is dying" when it comes to CCP, the best we can do at this point, in my opinion, is watch what CCP does. Observe the changes being made to Eve Online, and compare them with other actions by companies that have failed in the past (or sold their products, etc.).

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#193 - 2014-06-06 21:25:38 UTC
Ok. Time for bed. Last ones for the day


…yeah, I'm out of ideas. Oops
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#194 - 2014-06-06 21:58:25 UTC
Any daily newspaper is hardly the most reliable source for accurate information regarding internal company policy and strategy.
The desire to sell space and get eyeballs on page, may be considered by some a more relevant motivation.

There have been many events over time, that have been condensed into a short article. The focus of that may have given the impression of gross incompetence and neglect. There are always funny anectdotes about managers. Some are less connected to reality than others, and honestly, if one lets the devs decide what should be implemented without checks and balances, all hell breaks loose.

Times have changed, the market has changed, CCP have made the decision that it is uneconomic to try to chase those changes any further with an unreleased product.

I am sure many in CCP are reevaluating their role in this entire event, some will certainly feel vindicated after this article and some ashamed.

But this is normal life and normal business, CCP will learn, hopefully those who are no longer employed will find better opportunities and goals. And CCP looks at what makes EvE popular, and what loses them subscribers and adapt and overcome leaving the company and EvE as a game better off, and those remaining employees with better security for the future.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#195 - 2014-06-06 22:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Ok, those of you who are talking about how much 'hate' is going on here.... a month or so back, since I don't recognize most off you, I pointed out that CCP's financial situation must be pretty bad, and cited a large number of reasons, and my conclusion was that most likely subs were down in a significant manner. That has yet to be proven or not, but something clearly has impacted CCP in a very large way, financially.

Many of the 'haters' you see posting here decried me as a lunatic moron traitor doomsayer, compared me with Dinsdale and that I clearly hated eve etc etc etc.

Now you watch as they eat crow and admit that maybe there is something to this. Perhaps that should tell you how dire things actually look to be.
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#196 - 2014-06-06 23:53:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
KaarBaak wrote:
And complaints about the quality of dinner rations and medical coverage getting cut? LoL, as my old friend John McClane once said: "Welcome to the party, pal."

Why shouldn't he complain about getting less pay?


Not saying he cannot complain. Just saying that that's happening all over. Lots of folks are facing the same thing. It's nothing special.

Dum Spiro Spero

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-06-07 02:43:16 UTC
I'll take Hilmar over any other CEO in the MMO scene, anyday.

The MMO's out there are such complete money milking garbage people should build a statue for this man and we should thank him daily for not taking EVE into the gutter yet.

So things didn't work out for other games he tried, big F deal. Nothing ventured nothing gained. He could have easily sold out to the likes of EA and spent his millions on hookers and blow.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#198 - 2014-06-07 04:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
*Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

Ok, those of you who are talking about how much 'hate' is going on here.... a month or so back, since I don't recognize most off you, I pointed out that CCP's financial situation must be pretty bad, and cited a large number of reasons, and my conclusion was that most likely subs were down in a significant manner. That has yet to be proven or not, but something clearly has impacted CCP in a very large way, financially.

Many of the 'haters' you see posting here decried me as a lunatic moron traitor doomsayer, compared me with Dinsdale and that I clearly hated eve etc etc etc.

Now you watch as they eat crow and admit that maybe there is something to this. Perhaps that should tell you how dire things actually look to be.


Another one of the remaining bloggers had a post today about the fact that the "run is over", and these layoffs "should end the debate" about falling subs.

*Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.
Prince Kobol
#199 - 2014-06-07 08:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
KaarBaak wrote:
The Guardian article reads like countless other articles on game failures. Could easily substitute any random game title for WoD. It's an age-old story. TBH, the writing was on the wall after 5 years and so little production. I think WW picked the wrong partner--they should've teamed-up with a larger developer with a proven track record. But, being such a niche product they probably should've found a way to stay independent.

A curious thing about the Guardian article (and I don't read that publication much) is the large number of unattributed quotes. Entire paragraphs are enclosed in quotes, but no discernible speaker. I saw one reference to an unnamed developer and then I guess I have to assume all other quotes are attributed to Blood? So an entire article based on the opinions and viewpoint of a disillusioned GM?

So, as always I feel bad for the folks scrambling to find employment, but as the article points out this is just par for the course in this industry.

And complaints about the quality of dinner rations and medical coverage getting cut? LoL, as my old friend John McClane once said: "Welcome to the party, pal."



Nick Blood was not a disillusioned GM.

Nick Blood was formely known as CCP Dropbear. Also he was not disillusioned, he left CCP simply to move back to his home, Australia.

If you had spent about 30 seconds you could of found this out yourself.
Prince Kobol
#200 - 2014-06-07 08:09:57 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
I'll take Hilmar over any other CEO in the MMO scene, anyday.

The MMO's out there are such complete money milking garbage people should build a statue for this man and we should thank him daily for not taking EVE into the gutter yet.

So things didn't work out for other games he tried, big F deal. Nothing ventured nothing gained. He could have easily sold out to the likes of EA and spent his millions on hookers and blow.


So you are saying that Hilmar has not tried to milk us, the players for more money... seriously?