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Kronos Rattlesnake Incursion
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JrLUK
Rogue Pinapples
#1 - 2014-06-06 00:06:24 UTC
Evening all,

Apologies in advance, post is being written on my iPhone!

A few questions about the Rattler in incursions.

I've been interested in incursions for a while, but as a caldari char will a massive amount of missile skill points I've always read that missiles done get picked over guns, now with the buff to the rattlesnake in Kronos will that change?

I'm not sure on the exact figure but my rattlesnake tipped over the 1500 dps barrier earlier, that's achieved with 5 t2 launchers, 3 CNBCS and fed navy drone damage mods in the lows plus some choice implants, with mine and my partners (his is around 1050dps atm) we make surprisingly short work of any lvl4. Both dps figures are fielding geckos and have full teams of drones waiting for the right situation.

I'm not sure of the figures but I'm pretty sure it's an omni tank, it could always be adjusted though ofc.

Thoughts?

J

JrLUK: The oldest Noob in EvE. GTC's for Game time or Plex for cheap here: JrLUK's G2A
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#2 - 2014-06-06 00:27:13 UTC
The RS was already good at incursions.

Best anchor you can have.

Made them great for the 15 man plus groups.

I'm guessing your question is will this change for the 10 man groups.

I personally already thought it was great to have 1 in any group just to make life on the logi easier.

They were pulling over 1200 dps before the update.

The real question is is it worth having more than one in any given group now.

I've yet to see it happen so the answer is still unknown.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-06-06 03:41:43 UTC
Having flown them for a while, I can say this:

Most HQ communities won't take em because of the missile flight time. By the time your torps hit the target, the gun boats will have gotten off another cycle.

Some VGs will take em, but gun boats are better.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2014-06-06 03:45:55 UTC
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
JrLUK
Rogue Pinapples
#5 - 2014-06-06 11:06:56 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.


Noob question. What does anchoring refer to?

JrLUK: The oldest Noob in EvE. GTC's for Game time or Plex for cheap here: JrLUK's G2A
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#6 - 2014-06-06 11:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.


Noob question. What does anchoring refer to?

The anchor (AAA) takes the gate first, and due to a peculiarity of aggro mechanics, tends to pull the aggro on new waves much more than they would given any other metric. All other things equal, the ship that was AAA is about 75% likely to pull aggro. As for why the tank is important, there is typically an extra 2-8 second delay between them landing and the first reps on them vs a standard broadcast, depending on cap chain, logi lock speed, aligned vs unaligned logi, how the FC calls people into the site, etc.

They then proceed to be the person that manually pilots their ship while the other DPS pilots keep at range (1000m for slowboat, 5-7.5km for MWD) and logi orbit.

Similarly the VVV is the anchor for the shortrange boats, primarily vindicators and other blaster hulls in modern incursions.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
JrLUK
Rogue Pinapples
#7 - 2014-06-06 11:31:21 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.


Noob question. What does anchoring refer to?

The anchor (AAA) takes the gate first, and due to a peculiarity of aggro mechanics, tends to pull the aggro on new waves much more than they would given any other metric. All other things equal, the ship that was AAA is about 75% likely to pull aggro. As for why the tank is important, there is typically an extra 2-8 second delay between them landing and the first reps on them vs a standard broadcast, depending on cap chain, logi lock speed, aligned vs unaligned logi, how the FC calls people into the site, etc.

They then proceed to be the person that manually pilots their ship while the other DPS pilots keep at range (1000m for slowboat, 5-7.5km for MWD) and logi orbit.

Similarly the VVV is the anchor for the shortrange boats, primarily vindicators and other blaster hulls in modern incursions.


Thanks for the info guys, what are the odds of getting in to a Valhalla Fleet with a Rattler you think? Its a 30 jump journey, don't want to waste the day!

JrLUK: The oldest Noob in EvE. GTC's for Game time or Plex for cheap here: JrLUK's G2A
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#8 - 2014-06-06 11:43:26 UTC
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.


Noob question. What does anchoring refer to?

The anchor (AAA) takes the gate first, and due to a peculiarity of aggro mechanics, tends to pull the aggro on new waves much more than they would given any other metric. All other things equal, the ship that was AAA is about 75% likely to pull aggro. As for why the tank is important, there is typically an extra 2-8 second delay between them landing and the first reps on them vs a standard broadcast, depending on cap chain, logi lock speed, aligned vs unaligned logi, how the FC calls people into the site, etc.

They then proceed to be the person that manually pilots their ship while the other DPS pilots keep at range (1000m for slowboat, 5-7.5km for MWD) and logi orbit.

Similarly the VVV is the anchor for the shortrange boats, primarily vindicators and other blaster hulls in modern incursions.


Thanks for the info guys, what are the odds of getting in to a Valhalla Fleet with a Rattler you think? Its a 30 jump journey, don't want to waste the day!

As a new (incursion) pilot flying a ship not officially supported, it will be an uphill battle to get into a TVP fleet during primetimes. It will be hard to get in during lulls in DPS numbers even. I would put it as about as hard as getting in with a t1 hull with t1 guns and mids right now.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
JrLUK
Rogue Pinapples
#9 - 2014-06-06 11:47:09 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They're decent for AS sites, especially with a depot to switch out between torp and cruise. That said, AS sites are the bastard child of incursions.

As far as anchoring, short of known preloads under high influence, tank should not be an issue.


Noob question. What does anchoring refer to?

The anchor (AAA) takes the gate first, and due to a peculiarity of aggro mechanics, tends to pull the aggro on new waves much more than they would given any other metric. All other things equal, the ship that was AAA is about 75% likely to pull aggro. As for why the tank is important, there is typically an extra 2-8 second delay between them landing and the first reps on them vs a standard broadcast, depending on cap chain, logi lock speed, aligned vs unaligned logi, how the FC calls people into the site, etc.

They then proceed to be the person that manually pilots their ship while the other DPS pilots keep at range (1000m for slowboat, 5-7.5km for MWD) and logi orbit.

Similarly the VVV is the anchor for the shortrange boats, primarily vindicators and other blaster hulls in modern incursions.


Thanks for the info guys, what are the odds of getting in to a Valhalla Fleet with a Rattler you think? Its a 30 jump journey, don't want to waste the day!

As a new (incursion) pilot flying a ship not officially supported, it will be an uphill battle to get into a TVP fleet during primetimes. It will be hard to get in during lulls in DPS numbers even. I would put it as about as hard as getting in with a t1 hull with t1 guns and mids right now.


OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!

JrLUK: The oldest Noob in EvE. GTC's for Game time or Plex for cheap here: JrLUK's G2A
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-06-06 12:02:35 UTC
JrLUK wrote:


OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!


try tvp ask for a fit i efted one blingy one which looks reasonable but no idea as guns r rly preferred especially for competitions.

u will also need torp launchers and a depot to switch for pos bashes.

1 gecko 2 ogres had around the same damage stats not locked to deep into so.

[Rattlesnake, incursion]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier

Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Federation Navy Drone Navigation Computer
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Black Eagle Drone Link Augmentor

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Garde II x2
Ogre II x2
Gecko x1
Numba2 Special
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-06-06 13:01:46 UTC
The Rattlesnake is better for incursions than it used to be, but ultimately it's still outclassed by turret ships. It's not necessarily bad, just suboptimal, so you're going to have a hard time getting into picky incursion groups. If you're looking to run HQ sites you'll probably only see reasonable success at getting invites to WTM fleets. I'm less familiar with AS and VQ communities but it sounds like there are some who would take you, so ask around. Check here for some channels you can join and see if any would be open to accepting you into their fleet.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-06-06 15:38:28 UTC
JrLUK wrote:
OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!


You've already got the Gallente Battleship trained, and the drones trained. You can snag a Dominix and join in WTM until you earn the isk for a vindicator.
JrLUK
Rogue Pinapples
#13 - 2014-06-06 15:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: JrLUK
Nolak Ataru wrote:
JrLUK wrote:
OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!


You've already got the Gallente Battleship trained, and the drones trained. You can snag a Dominix and join in WTM until you earn the isk for a vindicator.


Its the T2 large drones that letting me down, ive only recently really started concentrating on BS's. I only used to use them fro missions and used to run CS's and HAC's mainly, so with Gecko's my Rattler is epic, with Large drones and sentry's not so much as its almost a month till i can use T2. Currently training for T2 rigs finally!

JrLUK: The oldest Noob in EvE. GTC's for Game time or Plex for cheap here: JrLUK's G2A
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#14 - 2014-06-08 11:15:37 UTC
JrLUK wrote:

OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!

We would love you forever. Please do this, and then learn contest mechanics in the most Darwinian manner possible.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-06-09 15:56:45 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:

OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!

We would love you forever. Please do this, and then learn contest mechanics in the most Darwinian manner possible.

actually i think cruise missile sniper platform if they can count their volleys and have a dedicated chan to call target with how many volleys should outperform a normal snipe fleet when uncontested for contests it would suck.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#16 - 2014-06-09 22:55:44 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:

OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!

We would love you forever. Please do this, and then learn contest mechanics in the most Darwinian manner possible.

actually i think cruise missile sniper platform if they can count their volleys and have a dedicated chan to call target with how many volleys should outperform a normal snipe fleet when uncontested for contests it would suck.

Were it not for the unfortunate tendency of antems + yulais to re-MWD, maybe. The likely hood of this sort of thing staying uncontested in HQs is very low, as even WTM would be doing a better job at picking off long range targets than a majority missile sniper fleet, meaning that it would take a very shiny fleet indeed to pick up enough more DPS on short targets to win.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-06-10 14:27:41 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
JrLUK wrote:

OK, its a bit silly really isn't it. Looks like i wont be doing Incursions then, not going to spend months training for a weapons platform just for one avenue of gameplay. Might start a missile fleet for a big middle finger to the elitists!

We would love you forever. Please do this, and then learn contest mechanics in the most Darwinian manner possible.

actually i think cruise missile sniper platform if they can count their volleys and have a dedicated chan to call target with how many volleys should outperform a normal snipe fleet when uncontested for contests it would suck.


Different volley speed and alpha value will be a nightmare to count.

"Ok guys, tag 1 is Otuni. It needs 253 equivalent missile hit. Start firing and please mention what ship you are using so we can count your fraction of gained missile because of your hull bonus. Also mention your BS skill level so we don't make too many rounding error."

I can totally picture the guy burning out, after like 3 targets.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#18 - 2014-06-11 03:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
Plan on more shiled than previously posted fit.

I get 1733 DPS out of the RS now.

I have ran incursions with TVP in the RS.

Was a hard sell and was pre Kronos.

DPS was only 1241 Pre patch.
Without letting the FC know I had all related skills to L5 and 5% hardwirings I doubt I would have got in at all.

It will hold the bad stigma for awhile until people realize how bad ass it is now for incursions.

Gecko with 2 faction drone omnis with tracking scrips kills even angel frigs easy if you have good drone skills. (( Works way better than the sentries/heavies did for close range small ships ))

If you have the hard wiring that improve your missiles you won't need more than 2 rigs and 1 tp to do near full dps.
Your fleet should have some other webs and tp's going if they are any good.
(( You might even prefer an ECM to hold even more aggro if others already have the tp's covered ))
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-06-13 17:00:32 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Plan on more shiled than previously posted fit.

I get 1733 DPS out of the RS now.

I have ran incursions with TVP in the RS.

Was a hard sell and was pre Kronos.

DPS was only 1241 Pre patch.
Without letting the FC know I had all related skills to L5 and 5% hardwirings I doubt I would have got in at all.

It will hold the bad stigma for awhile until people realize how bad ass it is now for incursions.

Gecko with 2 faction drone omnis with tracking scrips kills even angel frigs easy if you have good drone skills. (( Works way better than the sentries/heavies did for close range small ships ))

If you have the hard wiring that improve your missiles you won't need more than 2 rigs and 1 tp to do near full dps.
Your fleet should have some other webs and tp's going if they are any good.
(( You might even prefer an ECM to hold even more aggro if others already have the tp's covered ))


It will still be a hard sell because it still suffer from the same problem it had before. Both of it's damage system have a delay before application. Your TP also would only be covered if you have other missile boat already in the fleet. A ridiculously tanked anchor is also kind of overrated with how procedural sites are now. Unless you have a full team of new logi, everybody should know how to begin the site.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#20 - 2014-06-14 20:29:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It will still be a hard sell because it still suffer from the same problem it had before. Both of it's damage system have a delay before application. Your TP also would only be covered if you have other missile boat already in the fleet. A ridiculously tanked anchor is also kind of overrated with how procedural sites are now. Unless you have a full team of new logi, everybody should know how to begin the site.


The drone damage delay is exstreamly small.
The missile are still slow and is still an issue.
The TP aspect is shocking for gun boats when you see the DPS graphs compared to each ship using TC's.
Even for gun boats TP's are the better choice.
Main problem is when site goes into competition with another group.
If you are running with a completion fleet v.s. competition fleet you'll see TP's can net better results.

The other aspect is they are great for the large sites and if people don't let them in VG's then the lack of RS pilots carries over to all the other sites as well.

Logi can also have much easier time with RS anchor.
For those who risk the 2 logi setup in VG's having an RS anchor is awesome.
With the standard 3 logi group it can be over kill / unneeded.

No reason not to pick up a highly skilled pilot in a RS now v.s. some newer player with his shinny ship.
SP is the huge factor for if RS should be in the group or not.
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