These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Procurer/Skiffs are imbalanced now vs the other barges.

First post
Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#61 - 2014-06-04 20:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Ranger 1 wrote:
To put an even finer focus on the dev post quoted at the bottom of page 1 (thanks friend). Smile

Quote:
The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, and the Skiff gains an extra low slot (bringing its fitted yield up to the same level as the Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.


The Procurer and Skiff have the CPU to fit for effective mining AND all out combat. That is their job, and even more of a focus for the vessel that merely being difficult to gank in high sec.

And before you misinterpret yet again, the sacrifices mentioned in the post refers to the fact that they have less yield than a Hulk, and half the cargo bay of a Mac... it is not referring to sacrifices between yield and tank.


TL;DR The Skiff and Procurer are the MRAPs of mining, they're designed to do the job in a hostile environment at the expense of efficiency; the other exhumers and barges are civilian spec.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-06-04 20:26:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Max yield = not max tank

A max tank skiff is a monstrosity with both shield and hull tank. Throw on some reinforced bulkheads and a DC II. That's an extra 9k or so, just from the hull.
You can add another 5-6k + resists to the hull with a pair of T1 Transverse Bulkheads
Messing around with the preview build of EFT seemed to suggest that CDFE's did better for overall EHP on a full tank procurer, with the resist bonus on top of that using the skiff would the transverse bulkheads still be better?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#63 - 2014-06-04 20:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Max yield = not max tank

A max tank skiff is a monstrosity with both shield and hull tank. Throw on some reinforced bulkheads and a DC II. That's an extra 9k or so, just from the hull.
You can add another 5-6k + resists to the hull with a pair of T1 Transverse Bulkheads
Messing around with the preview build of EFT seemed to suggest that CDFE's did better for overall EHP on a full tank procurer, with the resist bonus on top of that using the skiff would the transverse bulkheads still be better?

6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other tbh. Either way CDFE or TB fitted Skiffs are EHP monsters, 90-95k+ (eve) EHP at all skills V against blasters depending on fit.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Nopatience
Doomheim
#64 - 2014-06-04 20:48:39 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Nopatience wrote:

Inability to fit what ships? I have pointed out that the skiff has ridiculous amounts of spare CPU due to only having to fit one mining module and it should be brought down to be in line with the other barges. In what language of yours does this translate into I can't fit my ships? The skiff is a smaller ship than the mackinkaw or hulk and does not need to use so much of its CPU fitting basic modules it needs to do the function it was designed for, yet it has more cpu than the mackinkaw and almost as much as the hulk. I do not want the other barges buffed, barge users have always had to choose between max yield or max tank. The skiff has so much CPU to use, it can have both.


There are plenty of other modules you can fit on it that use CPU too

The Mack and Hulksmash have too few slots to warrant as high CPU yield by comparison

But please tell me more about how you can have max yield and max tank when both make use of low slots to achieve this fully


Wrong.

Mackinkaw 2/4/3 slots
Hulk 3/4/2 slots
Skiff 1/5/3 slots

They have the same slots, 9 each. Except mackinkaw and hulks extra slots are high slots which are wasted on cpu gobbling mining modules. The skiff has the same yield as the mackinkaw and not far below the hulk thanks to huge mining bonuses.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#65 - 2014-06-04 20:56:19 UTC
Nopatience wrote:


Wrong.

Mackinkaw 2/4/3 slots
Hulk 3/4/2 slots
Skiff 1/5/3 slots

They have the same slots, 9 each. Except mackinkaw and hulks extra slots are high slots which are wasted on cpu gobbling mining modules. The skiff has the same yield as the mackinkaw and not far below the hulk thanks to huge mining bonuses.


Ok I accept that I was wrong on the turret count

BUT you are still wrong about the low slot count and the need for more CPU on a ship which doesnt just use its slots to mine with

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#66 - 2014-06-04 20:56:55 UTC
Op have you tried:
A fitting implants
B cheap faction/meta4 tank?

Oxide Ammar
#67 - 2014-06-04 20:57:58 UTC
GreenSeed
#68 - 2014-06-04 21:08:34 UTC
Nopatience wrote:
Silky Cyno wrote:
You can still gank them, you just have to spend 10 times what there worth to do it.

Did you really expect CCP to let a large part of the player base to take it in the B-hole forever vs gankers before they gave them a tanky decent boat ?


I have proposed that skiffs CPU is reduced so that a max yield skiff would have around 50 cpu spare for fitting mid slot modules. This change doesn't mean that skiffs will suddenly become ganked all the time. Providing the skiff user has good skills and has chosen his tank wisely, even if he is max yield fitted, I doubt he'll ever actually get ganked. You have nothing to worry about.

It's only the careless, stupid who will lose their ships, and I doubt even that will happen very often. Skiff will still be the strongest barge by far.



you still seem to be oblivious as to whats happening here, they introduced the original skiff as the bottom line yield, meaning that even if a coordinated interdiction like the blue ice one is in place, there's still at least skiffs mining in highsec. that was the point, that was the idea. the problem was that miners are stupid in levels that are beyond baffling so they kept mining in mackinaws even when they had flashy reds in local.

so CCP did the next best thing besides making CONCORD insta spawn on aggression, they made the skiff even better.

again, the point is, you are not supposed to be able to gank in any reasonable way a skiff and the changes you keep proposing go against that spirit.

the yield of the skiff, is the baseline yield. be it because CCP doesn't want players to have complete control over extraction via interdictions or because CCP just plain hates you, who knows. the point is, the ship is doing what it is supposed to, first "not dying to catalysts" and second, "tempting even the most stupid and sperg infested miner into using it."

if anything, the only unbalanced thing about it is the drone bonus, i don't mind it not dying to catalysts, but it should still die to a suspect bait.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#69 - 2014-06-04 21:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
GreenSeed wrote:
Nopatience wrote:
Silky Cyno wrote:
You can still gank them, you just have to spend 10 times what there worth to do it.

Did you really expect CCP to let a large part of the player base to take it in the B-hole forever vs gankers before they gave them a tanky decent boat ?


I have proposed that skiffs CPU is reduced so that a max yield skiff would have around 50 cpu spare for fitting mid slot modules. This change doesn't mean that skiffs will suddenly become ganked all the time. Providing the skiff user has good skills and has chosen his tank wisely, even if he is max yield fitted, I doubt he'll ever actually get ganked. You have nothing to worry about.

It's only the careless, stupid who will lose their ships, and I doubt even that will happen very often. Skiff will still be the strongest barge by far.



you still seem to be oblivious as to whats happening here, they introduced the original skiff as the bottom line yield, meaning that even if a coordinated interdiction like the blue ice one is in place, there's still at least skiffs mining in highsec. that was the point, that was the idea. the problem was that miners are stupid in levels that are beyond baffling so they kept mining in mackinaws even when they had flashy reds in local.

so CCP did the next best thing besides making CONCORD insta spawn on aggression, they made the skiff even better.

again, the point is, you are not supposed to be able to gank in any reasonable way a skiff and the changes you keep proposing go against that spirit.

the yield of the skiff, is the baseline yield. be it because CCP doesn't want players to have complete control over extraction via interdictions or because CCP just plain hates you, who knows. the point is, the ship is doing what it is supposed to, first "not dying to catalysts" and second, "tempting even the most stupid and sperg infested miner into using it."

if anything, the only unbalanced thing about it is the drone bonus, i don't mind it not dying to catalysts, but it should still die to a suspect bait.

Pretty close to the mark my friend, but the ability to survive a high sec gank attempt is a secondary side effect to it's role as a fully capable mining vessel that can be fit to engage in an active combat role for mining fleet defense in low and null sec.

This is the main reason why it performs well as a mid line mining vessel (but is out performed in one way or another in this regard by the other mining vessels) and has the CPU and slot layout and bonuses to allow for highly effective fits of the combat variety.

High sec gank survival is not it's focus, it goes quite a bit beyond that.

The greed and/or laziness of your average miner will ensure that the Macs and Hulks still see common usage. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-06-04 21:51:33 UTC
I love my Skiff. OP is just crying too much/doing it wrongBig smile

[Skiff, Innocent Miner]

Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


Hammerhead II x10

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#71 - 2014-06-04 22:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
I love my Skiff. OP is just crying too much/doing it wrongBig smile
Same, so many fun ways to fit them.

[Skiff, Amateur Geologist]

Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Shield Extender II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x5

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#72 - 2014-06-04 22:25:18 UTC
Nimrod vanHall wrote:
Op have you tried:
A fitting implants
B cheap faction/meta4 tank?


Did you know that you don't need a CPU implant or meta4 modules to fit a Skiff for max yield and T2 shield tank? All the other mining barges & exhumers have extremely tight fittings, with the main problem being the extremely high CPU usage of strip miners and ice harvesters. There is no problem with "tight fittings" on a Skiff, you have CPU and PG to burn.

What the OP is calling for is a reduction in fittings for the Skiff to bring it in line with the other ships in the same category. I'm not sure why this is so hard for everyone to understand? Perhaps they're all just too attached to their super-tank cyno ship?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#73 - 2014-06-04 22:28:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
super-tank cyno ship?

Deep Space Transports are superior for that role in every way.
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-06-04 23:14:33 UTC
OP is a fool.

[Hulk, 0.0]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Domination Shield Boost Amplifier
Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Mining Drone II x5

Short of rigs, it's MAX yield. I run a sig res ganglink and a shield harmonizing ganglink on my rorq next to the 3 mining links, and this hulk can tank nearly any spawn. Completely cap stable with any crystals. Tank can be changed for angels with ease, or for drones, though it's a little shakier on the drones.

But lets put some numbers out there;

Tank vs guristas (60% kin, 40% therm): 277 dps
Sig radius: 167m
Mining laser optimal range: 36.7km
Implants required: 3% cpu slot 6 implant
Additional implants used: Highwall 5% yield, slot 6
Capacitor stable at with highest CPU usage crystals: 39%

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY: YIELD.
Miners: 3592m3/M
Drones: 309.4m3/M
Total: 3901.4 m3/M


So, that's 3901.4 m3/M yield, cap stable, with a solid tank, one that doesn't even get close to blowing up short of a nasty faction/officer spawn. Whats the procurer do again for yield with all its godly cpu again?

[Skiff, maxyield]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I

Mining Drone II x5

Tank vs guristas (60% kin, 40% therm): 274 dps
Sig radius: 125
Mining laser optimal range: 29.3
Implants required: None
Additional implants used: Highwall 5% yield, slot 6
Capacitor stable at with highest CPU usage crystals: 66%, even with survey scanner running full time

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY: YIELD.
Miners: 2739m3/M
Drones: 309.4m3/M
Total: 3048.4 m3/M



End result:
Hulk can tank 0.0 belt rats just fine, and still fit for absolute max yield
Skiff can more easily tank the same rats, at significantly shorter mining range (29.3km vs 36.7km). This is the difference between mining the large asteroid belt from 2-3 spots with careful positioning, to easily from 2 spots.

Yield: 31% higher yield from strip miners on the hulk.

So, yes, sure, you CAN mine in a skiff, it's probably good in highsec with the difficulty to gank if you buffer fit, but for nullsec? Enjoy your pathetic yield.

"But Arronicus, you never touched on buffer, Skiff has super ama-" You're damn right I didn't. Buffer doesn't matter for real mining (0.0). You can active tank the rats, shrug them off, and mine for 100% full yield, or you can buffer tank, swap to combat drones and kill them, then swap back to miners, possibly lose a hulk because the buffer didnt hold out long enough, and overall, lose some of your yield per hour.
Doopydoo Howareyou
Asylum Alumni
Asylum Consortium
#75 - 2014-06-04 23:16:29 UTC
The Skiff can now make up the difference in mining yield by moving belt to belt and ratting simultaneously.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#76 - 2014-06-04 23:28:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nimrod vanHall wrote:
Op have you tried:
A fitting implants
B cheap faction/meta4 tank?


Did you know that you don't need a CPU implant or meta4 modules to fit a Skiff for max yield and T2 shield tank? All the other mining barges & exhumers have extremely tight fittings, with the main problem being the extremely high CPU usage of strip miners and ice harvesters. There is no problem with "tight fittings" on a Skiff, you have CPU and PG to burn.

What the OP is calling for is a reduction in fittings for the Skiff to bring it in line with the other ships in the same category. I'm not sure why this is so hard for everyone to understand? Perhaps they're all just too attached to their super-tank cyno ship?

I don't think it's intended to "be in line" with any other mining vessel.

It serves a dual role, good mining and good combat capability... this is why it's fittings and slot layout are the way they are.

You can get extremely creative with your load out, and although you'll always fall short of best in breed when it comes to mining you'll still perform that function well enough to not feel like you are useless on a mining expedition. You will still fill a profitable function even if no combat occurs. But if it does, you can pull more than a few surprises out of your hat.

It's a combat vessel that a miner will actually fly, and one that can be extremely unpredictable to it's intended opponents... that being clever human pilots instead of easily counter-able NPC ships. Versus NPC's you can simply fit specifically for them... a cookie cutter set up is fine. But against human opponents you'll need to be able to be very creative, especially if your Skiff happens to be the only one in the group. Fortunately you have the ability to fit it almost any way you please, meaning a would be human attacker looking for easy targets cannot simply assume what your fit is and counter it easily.

Don't get me wrong, I'll have no problem with it if they decide to tighten things up... but I fully understand and approve of their reasoning for this first iteration.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Prt Scr
569th Freelancers
#77 - 2014-06-04 23:49:26 UTC
I wont say the skiff is OP, but I ran a level 3 mission solo in mine today just for the lols, and I couldn't be arsed to mine the riods while doing it

uɐıssnɹ pɐǝɹ ʇ,uɐɔ ı ʇnq ʎɹɹos ɯ,ı

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#78 - 2014-06-05 02:26:19 UTC
I fit my skiff for three mining upgrades and fit a mackinaw with two upgrades and mid slot tank and survey. I ran each for about 5 hours and found in real world in-system test the mack still makes more isk per hour.

Spreadsheet analysis is not real world so fit some ships and find out what I did the mack with less theoretical yield still wins in actual practice because time to unload and get back to burning roids as well as subtle advantages of having more strips and not less makes the mack still high sec mining king even if fit to around 15k tank and loses out on spreadsheet analysis.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Xeator
soldiers.fi
#79 - 2014-06-05 03:57:52 UTC
I really dont understand the balancing behind barges.

Why would anyone fly anythign else than procurer/skiff?

Yield or ore hold size means nothing when you die horribly to some gank catalyst. The only one of the barges able take on a ganker is the procurer/skiff.

Whats even more puzzling is that a t2 frigate (prospect) has more room for ore than a cruiser sized barge.

Just remove retriever/covetor hulls from the game and be done with it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#80 - 2014-06-05 04:05:25 UTC
Nopatience wrote:


Wrong.

Mackinkaw 2/4/3 slots
Hulk 3/4/2 slots
Skiff 1/5/3 slots

They have the same slots, 9 each. Except mackinkaw and hulks extra slots are high slots which are wasted on cpu gobbling mining modules. The skiff has the same yield as the mackinkaw and not far below the hulk thanks to huge mining bonuses.

That maths is flawed because the 1 highslot on the skiff is equivalent to the 3 on the Hulk & the 2 on the Mack.
Meaning the Skiff actually has more slots overall than the other two variants.