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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2011-12-04 07:49:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Oh, don´t worry, i can make blasters work. But when i say "something interesting" i am talking about real pvp where you can´t afford to fly with gimped weapons because your opponents aren´t handicapped and won´t screw up. In PvE and so-called "PvP-fights" that aren´t much more challenging than PvE you can just use about any trash and still win... it´s kinda meh... boring...


Nice No True Scottsman fallacy there.

-Liang



Not really. Because i didn´t suddenly come up with a new point to be able to maintain my position. There was no need to mention that stationcamping and suicide ganking are domains of blasters. It´s quite old and commonly known. I was just pointing out that this hardly can be called PvP and even if you do, it´s definitely not challenging and interesting. Also quite old and commonly known. Presuming the knowledge of those things -you aren´t exactly a newbie in this game after all;) - and then pointing out those things because you apparently misinterpreted my rather vague and unclear choice of words doesn´t have anything to do with rethorical tricks.

Actually, now that you bringing those onto the table, i like to point out that you chose not to disprove not one of my arguments why Minmatar and Gallente should change their combat roles but rather diversed the argument by just claiming the Gallente will be the new FOTM with the current changes.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#582 - 2011-12-04 10:09:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


It's complete bullshit to say that Hybrids were dealing 30% of their DPS while projectiles are laying out 80%. Take a good long hard look at the Thorax and construct new Thorax vs Rupture arguments. I think you'll start to see that the Thorax is going to quickly replace the Rupture as the FOTM cruiser.

Eve is going to realign to a Gallente/Amarr FOTM again. If you want to do small gang up close work, you're going to use Hybrids. Everything else is going to be lasers. There's just not going to be room on the battlefield for Minmatar - their tanks are crap, and threading the needle for DPS just doesn't work outside of 1v1s.

I'm not complaining - I don't care. I can (and do) fly it all.

-Liang


Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong. Unless I missed something, Amarr werent buffed in this patch. Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.

Gallente now have a much sharper knife - but we still have to take them to a gunfight. Our engagement envelope hasnt changed. Gal still need some kind of ship tweaks to address the real problems. (a better use of structure or some kind of 'sprint, Bonus on some ships.

Now, on the Thorax, it has gotten a bit better - especially wit rails. I made a dual purpose FacWar plexor that can at least defend itself in pvp. It actually works pretty well. It chews through medium outposts very fsst. I even got a few kiils with it from people that thought they could kite me. Its kind of a generalist fit, but it works ok. Something like this:

5x200mm
Mwd, long point, TC
OD!!, dcuii, anp ii, mar II
1x Medium ACR rig

Hobs and warrs for drones

That gets about 300+ dps out to long point range, when using FN Plutonium.

I am confident that a Brutix could be a viable small gan boat wit rails. It can probably fit 250s...

Hoever, despite all that, minmatar wiil still be jusst as good as the were before. We will see what happens. Still early.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#583 - 2011-12-04 10:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Emily Poast wrote:
Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.


You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#584 - 2011-12-04 10:45:33 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.


You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes?


Hail does not have a falloff penalty. It has an optimal penalty which is nearly irrelevant on autocannons.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#585 - 2011-12-04 11:07:33 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:

Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong. Unless I missed something, Amarr werent buffed in this patch. Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.


The thing about it is that Gallente is almost as fast and agile as Minmatar while being superior in meaningful small gang ranges (0-30km, generally). Meanwhile, pretty much everyone already agrees that Amarr is and always has been better at fleet warfare - sans perhaps the "welpfleet". Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-

Consider that only the Sleipnir and Vagabond really have any role remaining as their own. The Sleip is still hands down the best CS once you include deadspace shield boosters, crystals, blue pill, and gang bonuses and the Vaga is faster than everyone else - though this is not as true as it once was. The Hurricane of course remains a fine ship, but its never been as good as the Drake or Binger in a straight up fight or in a pure damage dealing role. Even the Gimp Ships - T1 frigs, destroyers, AFs, Inties etc which have traditionally been considered Minmatar land have extremely viable Gallente competitors.

I'm still going to fly Minmatar on occasion, but their niche is getting whittled down fast and I don't think it'll take too much before people realize that they're no longer the "Winmatar" they once were - and truthfully much of the complaints I'm hearing are coming from people that don't appear to have undocked and tested the new winds out.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#586 - 2011-12-04 14:49:50 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.


You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes?

failmatar know your ammo noob
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2011-12-04 16:24:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:

Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong. Unless I missed something, Amarr werent buffed in this patch. Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.


The thing about it is that Gallente is almost as fast and agile as Minmatar while being superior in meaningful small gang ranges (0-30km, generally). Meanwhile, pretty much everyone already agrees that Amarr is and always has been better at fleet warfare - sans perhaps the "welpfleet". Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-

Consider that only the Sleipnir and Vagabond really have any role remaining as their own. The Sleip is still hands down the best CS once you include deadspace shield boosters, crystals, blue pill, and gang bonuses and the Vaga is faster than everyone else - though this is not as true as it once was. The Hurricane of course remains a fine ship, but its never been as good as the Drake or Binger in a straight up fight or in a pure damage dealing role. Even the Gimp Ships - T1 frigs, destroyers, AFs, Inties etc which have traditionally been considered Minmatar land have extremely viable Gallente competitors.

I'm still going to fly Minmatar on occasion, but their niche is getting whittled down fast and I don't think it'll take too much before people realize that they're no longer the "Winmatar" they once were - and truthfully much of the complaints I'm hearing are coming from people that don't appear to have undocked and tested the new winds out.

-Liang


Liang, you know that you are just talking nonsense. You made a statement earlier where you were impressed by the changes, were proven that the changes were quite meaningless and now you are trying to still win this argument by making random claims without any substance. Sorry, but you are trying to make a stand in a lost cause. It´s just too obvious now that you are driven to the point where you want us to tell that Gallente are superior in small gang warfare.

Lean back, take a deep breath and admit that it´s all about winning the argument now -no matter the cost- and this has made you going somewhere where you don´t want to be. It´s not that bad, it happens to all of us.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#588 - 2011-12-04 16:33:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-


Yo'u've no ******* idea, why the Welpfleet is called Welpfleet.
It's so called, because you can throw 200 canes with guns'n'neuts on a Super and even if they're all got killed, you still won the isk war.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Joe Cheap
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#589 - 2011-12-04 17:48:44 UTC
I dont know what game you re actually playing.

All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.

Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#590 - 2011-12-04 17:59:33 UTC
Been playing for about a year, with a little bit of PvP experience; the experienced players that got me into the game have said that the Minmatar's main strengths, and more specifically, projectile weapons, is the ability to change the damage type they do. While the hybrid weapons have had a nice buff, they are still limited to kinetic/thermal.

Is this or is this not as big a liability as I've been led to believe?

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#591 - 2011-12-04 21:30:38 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:


Liang, you know that you are just talking nonsense. You made a statement earlier where you were impressed by the changes, were proven that the changes were quite meaningless and now you are trying to still win this argument by making random claims without any substance. Sorry, but you are trying to make a stand in a lost cause. It´s just too obvious now that you are driven to the point where you want us to tell that Gallente are superior in small gang warfare.

Lean back, take a deep breath and admit that it´s all about winning the argument now -no matter the cost- and this has made you going somewhere where you don´t want to be. It´s not that bad, it happens to all of us.


Change is often delivered quickly and accepted slowly. You are a walking and talking example of this.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#592 - 2011-12-04 21:32:16 UTC
Luba Cibre wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-


Yo'u've no ******* idea, why the Welpfleet is called Welpfleet.
It's so called, because you can throw 200 canes with guns'n'neuts on a Super and even if they're all got killed, you still won the isk war.


Yes, it's called a "welp fleet" because you literally don't care if you lose it or if it. Talking about super caps tends to avoid the point I was making - welp fleets are obliterated when they run into proper fleets.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Adria Delphi
Doomheim
#593 - 2011-12-04 21:33:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:


Liang, you know that you are just talking nonsense. You made a statement earlier where you were impressed by the changes, were proven that the changes were quite meaningless and now you are trying to still win this argument by making random claims without any substance. Sorry, but you are trying to make a stand in a lost cause. It´s just too obvious now that you are driven to the point where you want us to tell that Gallente are superior in small gang warfare.

Lean back, take a deep breath and admit that it´s all about winning the argument now -no matter the cost- and this has made you going somewhere where you don´t want to be. It´s not that bad, it happens to all of us.


Change is often delivered quickly and accepted slowly. You are a walking and talking example of this.

-Liang


:psyduck:
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#594 - 2011-12-04 21:54:55 UTC
Adria Delphi wrote:
:psyduck:


People used to say that when I said the Drake was a good BC too.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#595 - 2011-12-04 22:04:02 UTC
Almost as fast = slower = getting kited until it dies. Until Gallante blasterboat is actually faster than Winmatar, by which I meant not just slightly faster, but rather able to catch up before it pops, nothing will change.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2011-12-04 22:16:44 UTC
the Gallente still dont have an answer for the Mach/Tornado. these ships track fine and do a lot of their dps well into the falloff.

there isnt a single non-t3 ship thats compatible with a full rack of medium rails. by compatible i mean it doing decent dps while having a decent tank. the Brutix and the Deimos cant fit 250's. 200's with AM cant hit well past 20km. Spike is horribly underwhelming.

blaster boats got a little faster, and a little more agile. but guess what? AC boats are still faster, and they fit a better tank due to generally having more mids.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#597 - 2011-12-04 22:28:55 UTC
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
Been playing for about a year, with a little bit of PvP experience; the experienced players that got me into the game have said that the Minmatar's main strengths, and more specifically, projectile weapons, is the ability to change the damage type they do. While the hybrid weapons have had a nice buff, they are still limited to kinetic/thermal.

Is this or is this not as big a liability as I've been led to believe?


This is a harder question than it initially sounds like. IMO, its just not as big of a liability as it sounds like - and here's two reasons why I think so:
- There are a lot of people omnitanking - or at least putting some effort in to cover resist holes. In these situations, Kin/Thm is either going to be the best damage types to be dealing or will be second best. Either way, its a safe bet - and you don't have to look any further than the popularity of RF PP to know this. Take a look at your favorite ship fittings and I think you'll see what I'm talking about here.
- T2 ships kinda throw a monkey wrench into this. T2 Caldari/Gallente ships can be tough nuts to crack, but T2 Minmatar and Amarr are actually weak to you. This is one of the times when I'm going to say that being able to switch damage types is really nice - though it will probably even out over time.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#598 - 2011-12-04 22:32:48 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Almost as fast = slower = getting kited until it dies. Until Gallante blasterboat is actually faster than Winmatar, by which I meant not just slightly faster, but rather able to catch up before it pops, nothing will change.


The great thing about kiting is that you have to respond to what the other person is doing. If you let them get too far away, they just warp off and you're no more effective than a cruise missile Raven at 250km. If you let them too close, you just lost the fight outright. The thing about it is that now you're trying to kite someone that's almost exactly the same speed as you are, with almost exactly the same agility.

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2011-12-04 22:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Liang Nuren wrote:

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang


Which is pretty much how it used to be before the last Proj buff, although back then it was more of a knife-edge; good pilots used to do well with Minmatar but most couldn't handle it.

I still think TE's need knocking back to a 15% Falloff boost though rather than an outright DPS nerf to projectiles or ships, first of all to stop ships with falloff bonuses being a bit silly on the range side like the Vaga, Mach etc. Second is that as it'll also affect blasters reach it won't make too much difference to the size of kiting zones for the normal ships, just move the ships slighly closer together.
Skinae
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2011-12-04 22:41:10 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:

Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong.


This*42.

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