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Remote Researching from NPC Station to POS -- DO NOT TAKE AWAY
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#61 - 2014-05-28 06:28:16 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
OP failed to notice that slots are being removed altogether, so he'll always be able to research a BPO in any station with research facilities with no waiting time.


Yup, and his costs only go up several orders of magnitude, and he has zero control over future costs, as he cannot control how many people use a station. (And I can only wait for the explosions of joy heard when mission runners realize that building 5 Fed Navy tracking computers at an NPC station just went from 1200 ISK to 120 million)

Truly a brilliant mechanism......

What Absinyth has failed to realize that this entire overhaul was designed to ruin high sec industry, forcing those that wish to continue industry to become serfs of the null sec cartel lords.


So you're saying that 1200 increasing by up to 14% equals 120,000,000?

Your maths baffles and confuses me.


Dinsdale uses math?

I could have sworn he was asking the Magic 8 Ball for his game related figures.


Maybe he misread the blog and thought that the cost increase was up to e^14 - which when I check it is approximately 1 million.

Oh Dinsdale! Oops

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Axe Coldon
#62 - 2014-05-28 20:11:06 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Aren't you leaving out the other important part?

Correct me if I misunderstand but aren't they also getting rid of fixed slots at stations? I always figured the big reason people even used a POS was due to the limited HS slot situation that resulting in long wait times for research.

With these changes many people who simply could not research themselves due to slot issues or standing/funding for a POS will not be able to.


Exactly correct. I setup my high sec pos in the spring of 2009. It was sad to take it down last week but I won't need it anymore. I did it so I could research without waiting. I look forward to slotless station researching. No pos fuel. yeah.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Absinyth
Tranquility Lost
#63 - 2014-05-31 21:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Absinyth
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
To maintain uniformity with S&I POS modules. Currently, to do MFG at a POS array involves putting your building materials at the POS. To do invention requires putting decryptors, datacores, and interfaces at the POS. I see no logical reason to keep BPO's elsewhere.

First, there's usually no need to do manufacturing at a POS unless your deep into Null sec or in a Wormhole. Even most Low sec stations have plenty of Manufacturing slots and don't have to hassle with figuring out which assembly arrays you need to make your stuff. Second, a logical reason why not to put your BPO's inside the POS Labs is because it increases the chance you will lose your BPO's unnecessarily.

For those who do research this equates to a lot of time and money lost since it takes money to fuel the POS and takes time to complete research jobs. It's not that people don't want to take on additional risk or effort if they can gain increased rewards......it's just that people don't want to lose a BPO, take the time to research it again at the level it was previously at for both attributes, and have to wait until the research is done in order to start making stuff again....per BPO. If more than one BPO was lost the time required to re-research all their BPO's can easily be several weeks or several months.

It is not reasonably wise or intelligent to purposely assume more risk (and increased time) simply because it was proposed to make people put the BPO in a POS Lab for research. To not waste time (and money) it's important to keep the ability to do Remote Research from NPC Station to a POS with the expansion, and in the future.

With this expansion, it will take more time to complete a research since they are at fixed levels so it will take longer to research than before. "The major change underpinning most of the work done here is to move blueprint research to a more skill-training-like system, with a fixed number of researchable levels with identical bonuses but increasing research time." (CCP Greyscale, Dev Blog: Researching, the Future, April 28, 2014)

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
To add additional risks to POS S&I. With the removal of station lines, the number of POS modules you need to run your corps S&I jobs is greatly diminishing. This essentially removes much of the risky "bling" at your POS, and putting BPO's back at the POS helps balance this.

The risky bling is the BPO's, with some people having a T2 BPO which is irreplaceable since they are no longer seeded. In most cases, if not every case, a BPO will cost more than the item itself. For instance, according to Eve-Central it costs approx. 40k - 60k for a Dual 180mm AutoCannon I while it's BPO costs 200k. The cost of replacing a few Invention items is worth the potential rewards and is nothing compared to losing a few BPO's along with the Invention items -- and that's the point I'm trying to make. Also, people who run Invention jobs don't store those items in the POS Lab and get consumed with the job

This difference in price is completely normal and justified but just shows how quickly the cost can add up with just a few BPO's being researched. That's just on a cheap item, the more useful or important an item the more the cost difference gap will be. Not to mention the fact that people will constantly have to fly their BPO's to the POS, change them out, and fly back with their researched BPO's. That will get old fast.

While it may be true that POS owners will get to only have one Lab structure for unlimited amount of slots at their POS the skills still will limit the number of jobs they can have at one time so that the limitless slots only applies to NPC Stations or if a corporation has a lot of people all starting jobs at the POS. It will also cost more money to conduct any S&I job of any type across the board which will then have to be passed onto the consumer, so keeping the ability to conduct Remote Research is a justified request and it will be less time-intensive from having to fly back in forth to/from the POS.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
As a conflict driver. There are few reasons to attack a POS in highsec. The 24 hr wardec warning allows players to usually get their POS assets safe, leaving little incentive for an attack. With the potential loot of BPO's, there is more incentive to attack them. While I understand you may not want such attention, I still think it is good for the game to encourage such things.

You say there's not a lot of reasons to attack a POS in High sec yet it happens all the time. It's also not uncommon for people to destroy your labs, right now, should you ever forget to refuel it. Yes, that can be easily avoided but simply showing that it is not uncommon for a person to attack a POS located in High sec. Also, keep in mind that it only takes a few Destroyers to take out a POS Lab structure.

With a War Dec even though both parties have a 24-hour staging window it is very possible if you know your target to start the War Dec at a time when they are at work or in asleep. so that when they get on the next day they will only have a few hours at best to prepare. And even if they have the full 24 hours I personally know lots of ways to take out a POS in High sec, not to mention that most people do not fit their POS properly.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I hope to profit from it. As someone that is willing to take risks, I hope to improve my profit margins by utilizing POS equipment above and beyond what the risk adverse NPC station builder enjoys.
I think it's still possible from profiting with this new system but everyone should expect prices to rise from 5% to 12% depending how populated the area is. The expansion is not the problem, just allow Remote Research.

"Expect costs ranging from 0% to 14% of the base item being produced for the most extreme case." (CCP Ytterbium, Dev Blog: Building better Worlds, April 15, 2014)
Absinyth
Tranquility Lost
#64 - 2014-05-31 21:38:22 UTC
Again, all I am saying is to keep the expansion changes as is, with the exception of keeping the ability to conduct Research Remotely by storing the Blueprints in an NPC Station to be Researched using the POS Labs.


This ability has been around for years and definitely for most of the time this game has existed. There is no justified reason to remove this feature and we can all enjoy the other benefits and risks the expansion offers. I personally, would like to know what the reason or justification is to remove this ability / feature. Based on the comments thus far and the mindset that people seem to have, I would only assume that it's to force people to store their Blueprints in the POS so people can come by destroy the Labs, maybe dropping the BPO, and get a better kill mail since the loss to the other party will be greater. If I'm wrong tell me but that is my opinion at the moment and if anyone else agrees with me please let your voice be heard.


If this ability was kept, people who want to research will know their Blueprints are safe and will continue to do so while having the ability to keep their costs low. The fact that a person owns a POS should entitle them to saving money without taking on unnecessary risks and without wasting more time based on how gameplay is currently before this expansions are released. People who want to attack POS's can still do so and get the same level of satisfaction as they do now. If the POS owner does not want to put up with this drama then the option of using the Research in the NPC station at a 0% to 14% increased cost rate may be worth considering. That is the beauty of having choices instead of forcing people down a particular pathway -- which keep in mind is not the true definition of a sandbox.

It is my opinion, based on my comments and facts I've previously posted, and from peoples' posts, in this thread by restoring the Remote Research ability while keeping the other Industry-related changes as part of the next two Expansions will be much more balanced and fair for everyone.
Absinyth
Tranquility Lost
#65 - 2014-05-31 22:09:23 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
...

This is, however, a problem for corporations (and I don't mean single player +alt type corporations), who will have to risk locking down their BPOs in POS modules to get the full benefit of them. I'm happy I'm not in charge of a big high-sec industrial corp, as that could be brutal.
...



You cannot lock down any BPO at a POS Lab or POS Corporate Hangers
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-05-31 23:56:36 UTC
Absinyth wrote:
First, there's usually no need to do manufacturing at a POS unless your deep into Null sec or in a Wormhole.

This will be changing, as NPC stations are going to add a tax on top of your manufacturing costs, which will happily eat away your margins. Additionally, I believe manufacturing arrays will also give a material bonus to manufacturing. So it looks like if you want to be a serious manufacturer, you're going to have a POS.

But I don't really see what the problem is. If someone war decs you, you still have the option of canceling your research jobs and pulling BPOs out immediately. There's no reason for anyone to think that the labs of a mildly competent researcher will turn out to be BPO piniatas.
Absinyth wrote:
You cannot lock down any BPO at a POS Lab or POS Corporate Hangers

Thank you. It's been a while since I've actually managed them.
Chick Sauce
Doomheim
#67 - 2014-06-01 06:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Chick Sauce
There are many ways to make your corp seem able to defend their POS, whether they can or not. It is rather tough to tear down a large POS that's setup properly as is. Add in support and the job becomes a big hassle.

So you gather all the people you know one time and get them to grind up someones POS. Congrats, your corp now has a handful of players that look like they will field battleships for POS wars.

In the case where they still want to shoot you, now your enemy must bring in that many more bodies, and for what? How do they know you have nice BPOs? More importantly why would they assume you havent pulled them out after the wardec?

The mechanic is not meant so much for taking BPO, because you have to be a fool to let that happen. Its meant to give players a shot at an advantage if they want to maintain a POS. Competiton can shoot your POS to make you lose that advantage, more so than actualyl take anything, but in high-sec even that is pretty irrelevant. you can relocate with a hidden alt corp 30 jumps away and do the same thing for a logistics fee of 3%-5%
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#68 - 2014-06-01 07:29:30 UTC
Absinyth wrote:
I personally, would like to know what the reason or justification is to remove this ability / feature.


Because CCP decided to. That's the only reason you need, and the only one you deserve.

They don't even have to justify it to anyone.
Absinyth
Tranquility Lost
#69 - 2014-06-06 19:49:06 UTC
I know that CCP doesn't have to explain or list their reasons for making the change but it would be nice. Courteous also imo. I'd definitely would appreciate being able to get into their head to fully understand their decision in regards to this feature.

With all the reasons that have been posted, explained, and commented on; I still don't think it is asking too much to keep the next expansion the way it is with the exception of NOT removing the Remote Research ability/feature. That's it!

That has been my sole argument even though other aspects are not too good either but is a good compromise most people would appreciate.



By the way, I have seen lots of feedback on this thread and that is much appreciated even if we don't see eye-to-eye. Thank you
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#70 - 2014-06-06 20:05:52 UTC
With respect:

I officer a small corp, and ALL of our research is done in a hisec POS for operational security reasons. Originally this was because when we started our R&D for simple stuff like ammo our alts didn't have networking skills, then we figured out that it was actually pretty safe to research the BPs on location anyway. Worst case scenario is a wardec, in which case you can quickly and easily cancel the job, evac the BP, and break down the whole POS within a 24 hour period, and in most cases for hisec holding corps this is what you'd do during a wardec anyway. Thus, even if we had been networking research the net effect of distruption of research due to war would have been the same.

For this reason, we never trained the networking skills as they weren't worth the effort because we weren't running more than one POS worth of research jobs at a time, so it wasn't worth the effort. if you're already invested in some simple precautions like undock scouting and a blockade runner or two it's already a waste of time to learn networking skills for security reasons, the only good reason to train them is for large scale operations, in which case you should really have contingency plans set up to evac or defend your assets anyway.
Sigras
Conglomo
#71 - 2014-06-06 20:38:06 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Aren't you leaving out the other important part?

Correct me if I misunderstand but aren't they also getting rid of fixed slots at stations? I always figured the big reason people even used a POS was due to the limited HS slot situation that resulting in long wait times for research.

With these changes many people who simply could not research themselves due to slot issues or standing/funding for a POS will not be able to.


Exactly correct. I setup my high sec pos in the spring of 2009. It was sad to take it down last week but I won't need it anymore. I did it so I could research without waiting. I look forward to slotless station researching. No pos fuel. yeah.

are you also looking forward to 25% longer research times, 35% longer copy times and 50% longer invention times?

Honestly, anyone who values the number of concurrent science slots they can run IE everyone playing efficiently, will still be using a tower after the change.
Sigras
Conglomo
#72 - 2014-06-06 20:50:52 UTC
Absinyth wrote:
First, there's usually no need to do manufacturing at a POS unless your deep into Null sec or in a Wormhole. Even most Low sec stations have plenty of Manufacturing slots and don't have to hassle with figuring out which assembly arrays you need to make your stuff. Second, a logical reason why not to put your BPO's inside the POS Labs is because it increases the chance you will lose your BPO's unnecessarily.

2 things:

1. 2% material reduction isnt enough of a reason to use a POS? do your math again
2. nobody except the extremely lazy loses a BPO in a high sec tower... you get a 24 hour notice before anyone attacks it... its called a war dec.
Absinyth wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
As a conflict driver. There are few reasons to attack a POS in highsec. The 24 hr wardec warning allows players to usually get their POS assets safe, leaving little incentive for an attack. With the potential loot of BPO's, there is more incentive to attack them. While I understand you may not want such attention, I still think it is good for the game to encourage such things.

You say there's not a lot of reasons to attack a POS in High sec yet it happens all the time. It's also not uncommon for people to destroy your labs, right now, should you ever forget to refuel it. Yes, that can be easily avoided but simply showing that it is not uncommon for a person to attack a POS located in High sec. Also, keep in mind that it only takes a few Destroyers to take out a POS Lab structure.

my thought process goes "if theyre stupid/lazy enough to let their POS go unfueled, they maybe they're stupid/lazy enough to forget to move their stuff to safety...
Eve is not about protecting the stupid or lazy; if you want to be stupid and/or lazy, the station research facilities are waiting for you.

Absinyth wrote:
With a War Dec even though both parties have a 24-hour staging window it is very possible if you know your target to start the War Dec at a time when they are at work or in asleep. so that when they get on the next day they will only have a few hours at best to prepare. And even if they have the full 24 hours I personally know lots of ways to take out a POS in High sec, not to mention that most people do not fit their POS properly.

You do realize that if you cancel a job you immediately get the BPO back right? sure the research time gets wasted, but you dont necessarily have to defend the POS, you could just cancel the jobs and un-anchor the labs which should take you about 4 minutes.