These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Question about Max ME/PE
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Coar Paendraygon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-09-11 18:01:50 UTC
Before people start trying to correct me and say that I want to look at the perfect ME and PE levels, I already know about those, and that has nothing to do with my question.

My question relates to the maximum to which these levels can be raised. I've looked at a few tools out there, and the commonality between them is they stop being able to go above 999. Can anyone confirm, preferably with a screenshot, that these values can indeed go above 999?
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#2 - 2011-09-11 18:27:46 UTC
They can. I've several copies of modules with 1000+
Coar Paendraygon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-09-11 18:37:56 UTC
Do you mean copies with over 1000 runs? Or do you mean you've taken the ME and/or PE levels to 1000+?
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-09-11 18:50:05 UTC
Why? Anything above an ME of 20 for modules, 40 for large guns crusiers/battlecrusiers, and 100 for battleships is a waste of ISK researching increasingly diminishing returns. It is time to stop researching when the cost of researching outweighs the material savings cost,and lost production time.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Coar Paendraygon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-09-11 19:16:04 UTC
Well, when the cost of research is nothing but POS fuels that were already going to be used, and the production time for T1 is hindered by T2 production, I want to put my T1 prints to work.

There are prints with a "perfect" ME that is well over 1000. All I'm wondering is if that is attainable. This isn't a question about profit margins or lost production time. I know how to calculate those things on my own. I'm just looking for information that I can't readily discover.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2011-09-11 21:14:37 UTC
Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Before people start trying to correct me and say that I want to look at the perfect ME and PE levels, I already know about those, and that has nothing to do with my question.

My question relates to the maximum to which these levels can be raised. I've looked at a few tools out there, and the commonality between them is they stop being able to go above 999. Can anyone confirm, preferably with a screenshot, that these values can indeed go above 999?
My most researched BPOs are all the sentry drones at M.E. 1787
Kyseth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-09-11 21:19:37 UTC
Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Well, when the cost of research is nothing but POS fuels that were already going to be used, and the production time for T1 is hindered by T2 production, I want to put my T1 prints to work.

There are prints with a "perfect" ME that is well over 1000. All I'm wondering is if that is attainable. This isn't a question about profit margins or lost production time. I know how to calculate those things on my own. I'm just looking for information that I can't readily discover.


Well, if you are looking for theoretical perfect ME that is over 1000, any battlecruiser listed in EVEMon shows a perfect ME of well over 1000 (ex. Drake is 488,862). Now, do I have a blueprint to show you.. most likely not.

I suppose you are asking someone to show a screenshot of a blueprint that is researched with an ME >= 1000?
Coar Paendraygon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-11 21:31:28 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My most researched BPOs are all the sentry drones at M.E. 1787

Thanks. This is basically what I've been asking for. While a screenshot would have been nice, I just wanted to know that 999 wasn't the max.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2011-09-11 21:43:57 UTC
Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My most researched BPOs are all the sentry drones at M.E. 1787

Thanks. This is basically what I've been asking for. While a screenshot would have been nice, I just wanted to know that 999 wasn't the max.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1109/m.e.1787.png
Strake Ironsides
Semantics Unlimited
#10 - 2011-09-11 23:06:21 UTC
And here I thought for sure that th perfect ME/PE levels would be OVER 9000!
Hitail
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-12 00:06:37 UTC
I'd just like to observe that perfecting your blueprints may mean paying for a research slot for several months just to save 1 trit per run.

Not that I'm pointing fingers, I like to perfect mine too. I do think it's one of my dumbest Eve habits though. In no case will I ever pay for the slot rental from trit saved..
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2011-09-12 00:41:04 UTC
Hitail wrote:
I'd just like to observe that perfecting your blueprints may mean paying for a research slot for several months just to save 1 trit per run.

Not that I'm pointing fingers, I like to perfect mine too. I do think it's one of my dumbest Eve habits though. In no case will I ever pay for the slot rental from trit saved..
This is 100% true.

Not all my BPO are perfect; just the ones that don't take years to research. I typically aim for M.E. 20 on 10% base waste BPO (<0.5% waste), and P.E. 25 (<1%). I recommend doing only ammo to perfect, because millions of runs of that are made, and it doesn't take long to research.

My most researched BPO by lab time is probably a perfect Archon at M.E. 8 and P.E. 1, though I have seen people selling BPC for M.E. 10. Roll

Moments ago I went and picked-up an Orca BPO because I was running out of stuff to research, LOL.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-09-12 01:23:26 UTC
Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Well, when the cost of research is nothing but POS fuels that were already going to be used, and the production time for T1 is hindered by T2 production, I want to put my T1 prints to work.


Another fine example of 'what I mine is free.' Seriously, if you are worried about a loss of >0.5% in mineral costs that can be easily compensated for in the volume of sales for producing it rather than tying it up in researching the "perfect" ME that may take years to break even on profitability VS research expenditure, go right ahead.

Quote:
There are prints with a "perfect" ME that is well over 1000. All I'm wondering is if that is attainable. This isn't a question about profit margins or lost production time. I know how to calculate those things on my own. I'm just looking for information that I can't readily discover.


Short answer; yes it is attainable.

Long answer; Yes it is attainable, but why tie up a valuable slot chasing butterflies?



"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#14 - 2011-09-12 07:36:47 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Well, when the cost of research is nothing but POS fuels that were already going to be used, and the production time for T1 is hindered by T2 production, I want to put my T1 prints to work.


Another fine example of 'what I mine is free.'
No it's not. Not even remotely.



Coar Paendraygon wrote:
Do you mean copies with over 1000 runs? Or do you mean you've taken the ME and/or PE levels to 1000+?

Yes, to the second question. You were asking about ME levels, not copy runs Big smile
(Although I think it is not possible to have more than 1000 runs on a single print!)
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-09-12 16:19:12 UTC
OK lets say for example you want to get a perfect ME on a large gun say 1400mm Artillery. It will take you 7 years, 10 months, 26 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes, to get to a "perfect" ME level of 20.498. I guess you will show me up in ~8 yearsLol.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2011-09-13 04:54:44 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
OK lets say for example you want to get a perfect ME on a large gun say 1400mm Artillery. It will take you 7 years, 10 months, 26 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes, to get to a "perfect" ME level of 20.498. I guess you will show me up in ~8 yearsLol.

For what it is worth...

By my account for 1400mm Artillery and current Jita sell prices for minerals, and for brevity skipping M.E. levels that don't result in completely eliminating waste in a mineral rather than just reducing it (the report spew would be 224 lines otherwise):

Waste: Tri Pye Mex Iso Noc Zyd Meg ISK
M.E. 0: 10249 2629 877 239 37 2 3 112090.99
M.E. 3: 2562 657 219 60 9 0 1 28244.67
M.E. 6: 1464 376 125 34 5 0 0 14484.08
M.E. 74: 137 35 12 3 0 0 0 1166.12
M.E. 477: 21 6 2 0 0 0 0 158.37
M.E. 1754: 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 24.74
M.E. 5258: 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 6.82
M.E. 20498: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00

It takes about 25 days to research to M.E. 375 at a POS. I know because my 1400mm Howitzer Artillery BPO is currently at 375 (there is actually no change from 372 to 381). Researching much longer to save so little ISK is really not worth it

So ya, be smart about how much you research. Always do the math first.
Kithran
#17 - 2011-09-13 11:35:46 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
OK lets say for example you want to get a perfect ME on a large gun say 1400mm Artillery. It will take you 7 years, 10 months, 26 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes, to get to a "perfect" ME level of 20.498. I guess you will show me up in ~8 yearsLol.

For what it is worth...

By my account for 1400mm Artillery and current Jita sell prices for minerals, and for brevity skipping M.E. levels that don't result in completely eliminating waste in a mineral rather than just reducing it (the report spew would be 224 lines otherwise):

Waste: Tri Pye Mex Iso Noc Zyd Meg ISK
M.E. 0: 10249 2629 877 239 37 2 3 112090.99
M.E. 3: 2562 657 219 60 9 0 1 28244.67
M.E. 6: 1464 376 125 34 5 0 0 14484.08
M.E. 74: 137 35 12 3 0 0 0 1166.12
M.E. 477: 21 6 2 0 0 0 0 158.37
M.E. 1754: 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 24.74
M.E. 5258: 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 6.82
M.E. 20498: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00

It takes about 25 days to research to M.E. 375 at a POS. I know because my 1400mm Howitzer Artillery BPO is currently at 375 (there is actually no change from 372 to 381). Researching much longer to save so little ISK is really not worth it

So ya, be smart about how much you research. Always do the math first.


Whether or not its a waste depends on if you are able to make better use of the time e.g. getting to say 375 would take a week but you are going to be away for 2 weeks - might as well put two weeks research on it as it hasn't cost you anything more. Similarly if you think you are unlikely to be in range to deliver jobs and start new ones for a long period setting jobs to run past optimal (but still into territory where there is some saving) why not.

There is also the special case of people selling bpcs to people who don't do maths and simply buy the biggest number - if researching your master copy to 1000 (say) means you sell at a faster rate then the relative worth of doing that research is greater than looking at the pure mineral numbers.

I must admit I'm curious as to what me level is used by those who do mineral compression for super cap builders.

Kithran
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-09-13 13:36:03 UTC
Those habits are the reason why all slots for research are occoupied by idiots doing research on their bpos for nothing. I wish ccp would increase the costs for doing that, so people stop.
Coar Paendraygon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-09-13 14:11:55 UTC
Like I said from the beginning, this was only an academic question. The tools I had available were limited, so i wanted to know if that limit was there. Since I'm using a POS for the research, and I already need the advanced labs for copies, my other research slots would otherwise be unoccupied. As the T1 prints would otherwise be unused as they are only producing enough T1 materials for my T2 production cycles, when there is down time, I just want to incur some savings, even if it's just that last trit.

For those of you who haven't gone off on tangents that had nothing to do with my questions, I appreciate it. You've answered the question I had.
Kithran
#20 - 2011-09-13 18:32:57 UTC
Usurpine wrote:
Those habits are the reason why all slots for research are occoupied by idiots doing research on their bpos for nothing. I wish ccp would increase the costs for doing that, so people stop.


Actually neither of those cases do - the only circumstance where it costs nothing more to do 2 weeks research compared to one weeks research would be when you are using a pos (assuming you are going to be away for two weeks and don't feel like your pos running out of fuel in that time) and in the case of someone researching to a high me for the purpose of bpc sales they would need a pos with advanced labs to have the copy slots they would need.