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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2981 - 2014-05-31 18:04:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



Try it yourself over a dozen missions on SISI, it is substandard to the RNI and Substandard To the Dominix.
It does not matter how you fit it, it ends up worse than currently no matter how fit, the time to destroy FAST small targets has gone through the roof. On missions that have significant numbers, players will just reject those.
Slow small rats are not much of an issue just a little annoying.
Sure one CAN use it, but that is not the point.
For missioning, it has become a worse ship.
For your uses it may be an improvement, that is good for you.
Unfortunately the rebalance has left it in a worse place for a large number of users.
That is an unnecessary and undesired, outcome.


I am not getting the same results in my testing. It has more missile firepower and the same drone firepower, frigates are not an issue for the new rattle unless you are doing something very wrong.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2982 - 2014-05-31 18:28:59 UTC
Why do you even feel a pressing need to shoot spider drones and elite frigs immediately in L4s? L4s are not hard and you're in a Rattlesnake, just save them for last. You don't need to speed tank stuff in this ship. On missions with heavy drone aggro you're basically webbed anyways with both the old and new versions, heavy drones can not be sent out and you sure don't want to abandon your sentries.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#2983 - 2014-05-31 20:52:01 UTC
Ziphonius wrote:
Just going to put my comment on the Rattlesnake here.

Why do a rattle need HP bonus on sentries? They are barely hit due to their sig radius. Instead of that, you remove the only reason to use the rattle instead of any gallente battleship. Now it has no more bonus to "possible omni-damage". Bonus to damage types OTHER than KIN/THERM was the reason why I did choose this ship (okay, another reason were resistence bonus/tank setting).

For me, this is a huge step backwards, even with the 1 more launcher spot. The rattle is basically a ship with time delayed KIN/THERM damage now that can even be prevented from the target ships (counter rockets. Don't know the english name by now.)

It isn't even possible to carry enough sentries any more to be able to launch them depending on the situation need. You have two, and thats it. You need a long time forecast to fit that ship now. No chance to swap between "oh sh... not enough damage" or "oh sh... too fast!"

So... what speaks for the ship for now?
-> A lot less versatile due to limits in damage types, range and variety of drones available
-> To PvE aggro a ship on long range, you can use the target painters now because missiles won't reach or it takes forever. And EM/EXP damage is weak anyway. So... wasted money.
-> Moar damage to the two sentries you cannot exchange in battle.

Not a good deal for me...

However, we will see how this changes in the future. Removing the stupid gallente weakness (KIN/THERM), instead boost the flight speed again and giving the ship a 3rd or 4th sentry drone bay place would make this ship fly again.

Well, lets hope and see.

Regards.


I think you misunderstand. The Kinetic and Thermal damage bonus is just for missiles. It still has omni damage bonus depending on the type of drone you use. It is a crazy versatile ship. Also if you are having trouble getting around the field fit a micro jump drive.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#2984 - 2014-05-31 20:59:01 UTC
So, Just some theory Crafting. The new snake with one Scimitar should be able to out preform a 3 man RR Tengu group. In both DPS, Tank, AND cost. It also is within 50 DPS or so of a 3 man dominix gang, but does cost more. I might need to try this
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2985 - 2014-05-31 23:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Everyone in this thread, please stop replying to Rod and Epic. Just ******* stop.

The reason this thread is an unreadable ****-heap isn't because of their trolling, it's because you guys keep eating the bait. Stop.

I post the results of my testing and that is trolling?
The rattlesnake has a flaw, that is all.
It is not a bad ship but it is not faultless.
Is it not the point of a feed back forum to give feedback?

Anyway, there is absolutely no point in discussing this further, the features are set in place for the launch, and after the initial excitement, the players opinions will be heard without being drowned out.
All has been discussed and explained, in depth, repeatedly, and the same questions come up again and again, ignoring all that has been said,
I get it carrelous and "friends" you want to squash all discussion.

When the users try it, people will form their own opinion, pulling half your damage, repeatedly will be such fun, users will love trying to shoot elite frigates and spider drones with heavies, and then give up and find it not much better with unbonused low hit point light drones
And then they will buy navy ravens or dominixes, as with a navy raven, one does not have to pull in half your dps to concentrate weak light drones on the webbing and scramming frigates.

I Hope you will be proud.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2986 - 2014-06-01 00:08:21 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus, you are cherrypicking bad fits to try and prove your point.

You're also fussing too much about application.

Even if you fit the Rattlesnake as a missile boat and ignore the drone modules, then it becomes a better Scorpion Navy Issue with damage bonused sentries.

That's a damned fine ship, no matter how much you might wring your hands about having to use the same light drones that, to use your own example, the Navy Raven has. Or nearly every other battleship in the game.

My Paladin does just fine without bonused light drones. Somehow I can manage to do missions without running into this mysterious problem you keep talking about where they get blapped constantly by the drone hungry rats.



Try it yourself over a dozen missions on SISI, it is substandard to the RNI and Substandard To the Dominix.
It does not matter how you fit it, it ends up worse than currently no matter how fit, the time to destroy FAST small targets has gone through the roof. On missions that have significant numbers, players will just reject those.
Slow small rats are not much of an issue just a little annoying.
Sure one CAN use it, but that is not the point.
For missioning, it has become a worse ship.
For your uses it may be an improvement, that is good for you.
Unfortunately the rebalance has left it in a worse place for a large number of users.
That is an unnecessary and undesired, outcome.


MJD

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2987 - 2014-06-01 00:16:20 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
When the users try it, people will form their own opinion, pulling half your damage, repeatedly will be such fun, users will love trying to shoot elite frigates and spider drones with heavies, and then give up and find it not much better with unbonused low hit point light drones
And then they will buy navy ravens or dominixes, as with a navy raven, one does not have to pull in half your dps to concentrate weak light drones on the webbing and scramming frigates.

I Hope you will be proud.



1) You've ignored my post and I do not believe I've butted heads with you in the thread and my post was to try and assist you. I strongly suspecct you are not getting the most from the ship down to fitting/misconception issues. I mean no offence.
2) You're being massively melodramatic.
3) Precisions cruises - get the skills to use them. Then wonder what the heck you were worried about.
4) Seriously - why do spider drones bother you? It's a SENTRY boat they web (they dont even scram and they do 0 DPS). It's not like it's a tengu and speed is life. You're already stationary!
M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2988 - 2014-06-01 00:51:55 UTC
Quote:

Also if you are having trouble getting around the field fit a micro jump drive.


Its pretty lol with a AB. I saw a 30% reduction in damage received from firing up the AB and speed tanking things. Even the frigates lost about that much. Not that you care if a frigate or ten is shooting you. Makes cruise missile rats a whole lot less painful. Still I bet most would rather sentry up and remove DPS on the field the old fashioned face breaking way.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#2989 - 2014-06-01 00:59:18 UTC
Dear epicurus ataraxia,

so you said you went on SiSi as I would strongly encourage to do for anyone who is under the impression your favourite pirate boat will perform different from was you know.

Now what I also strongly encourage is to read the first post of this thread and after you are done reading, please repeat.

I am going to quote the first post where the Rattlesnake is mentioned,

"Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)"

Can you see what this does say?

Another hint,
look at the Raven's traits tab, where it says that the missile velocity range and rate of fire bonus is limitied to cruise missle and torpedo launchers.

I hope you see it now?

If you really have trouble shooting small and agile NPC's I am encouraging you to make a use of the huge bonus this ships was given, to ALL missile launchers of ALL sizes.

Nobody tells you to always fit cruise missile launchers. On a Raven and Navy Raven, I would do so but the Rattlesnake even gets rocket launchers bonussed, so you can use them and the drones for the rest.

There is also noone who says, that you need to use two of the same drones at all times. Go crazy and be creative.

One sentry drone is already as strong a four of them of Tranqulity today. Try a combination of one Preator II and one Garde II.

Be amazed.

Well and maybe fit one tackle mod on your boat and all of a sudden all the evil NPC's that only wants to take all of our drones away are looking at your boat funny.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2990 - 2014-06-01 02:16:14 UTC
If you're really that paranoid about spider drones, drop a mobile depot and refit to rapid precision lights. When they're dead, refit back to cruises or torps or frigate launchers or whatever you started with.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2991 - 2014-06-01 02:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
afkalt wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
When the users try it, people will form their own opinion, pulling half your damage, repeatedly will be such fun, users will love trying to shoot elite frigates and spider drones with heavies, and then give up and find it not much better with unbonused low hit point light drones
And then they will buy navy ravens or dominixes, as with a navy raven, one does not have to pull in half your dps to concentrate weak light drones on the webbing and scramming frigates.

I Hope you will be proud.



1) You've ignored my post and I do not believe I've butted heads with you in the thread and my post was to try and assist you. I strongly suspecct you are not getting the most from the ship down to fitting/misconception issues. I mean no offence.
2) You're being massively melodramatic.
3) Precisions cruises - get the skills to use them. Then wonder what the heck you were worried about.
4) Seriously - why do spider drones bother you? It's a SENTRY boat they web (they dont even scram and they do 0 DPS). It's not like it's a tengu and speed is life. You're already stationary!


Also hes alerady "pulling" half of his dps every time has lights out and has no problem with it, i guess this is another "i chose to use this stupidly and it didnt work out, so it is up" thing.

EDIT: and its quarter, not half, in the end, because ~50% dps comes from missiles...
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#2992 - 2014-06-01 04:23:07 UTC
Reitarating on the Wormhole set up before, A T2 fit snake + 1 logi Scimitar is about 1 Bil ATM. It puts out 1.5 K DPS at 60 KM, 1.3 at 75 KM, and 800 out to 111 KM. That is complete overkill for most sites, and it costs about the same as a 3 man domi group.

You can add a Raven in for 900 More DPS, and it still costs less than a 4 man domi set up, with the same amount of tank and More gank. The new snake will be a Beast in C4/C5 Non-capitial Wormhole operations.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2993 - 2014-06-01 10:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Ok lets take this stupidity in small bites.

Yes I know I can shoot spider drones with anything.
There are more small fast rats than spider drones.
Yes I know other ships can shoot them.
Yes I know there are different drones.
Yes All the little things that people pick out to try to dismiss concerns are not actually the important part.

So pay attention now.

The rattlesnake is less "pleasurable" " efficient" and " balanced" than before.

It now rewards micromanagement and is an inferior choice to the Caldari Navy Raven or the Dominix. In the area where it previously had the most use, which was in level 4 missions and anomalies

It certainly can still do them, it is not suddenly a bad ship. it can do more overall dps under certain circumstances. None of that is in dispute.

If that is what CCP want, then they have achieved their goal.

It is now a poorer ship after the rebalance in many ways, and better in a few.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Abmeiz Keram
Eagle Nebula Industries
#2994 - 2014-06-01 10:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Abmeiz Keram
From the point of view of a Passive Rattlesnake user: Nothing has changed and I will fly it with the same fit and probably I'm not going to see any difference.
Maybe for some Active tanked Rattlesnakes, the combined firepower will go up, but as I see it, for a Passive one it's just an exchange: 50% light&medium drones bonus for 50% missiles damage bonus. Up until now 99% of a time I was using drones ONLY and I didn't use missiles almost never. I understand that CCP wanted to change that, but...

@elitatwo & @Alvatore DiMarco: Just you cannot change launcher sizes in space (drones you can) and don't tell me to carry Mobile Depot in my cargo hold (haha), it's not an F1 race car, so that I would have to carry around my own team of mechanics. Plus I already carry a Mobile Tractor Unit and my cargo hold is limited.

On a passive Rattlesnake I need all Rigs, most of my Medium slots and half of my Lows for a tank and I don't have available slots for modules boosting Missile damage (or application), unless I compromise Lows and split 2x Tank modules, 2x Ballistic Control Unit and 2x Drone Damage Amplifier, but then I get less tank ( lower shield recharge rate on a passive tanked ship), less drone damage (on a drone boat) and not so great missile damage bonus (especially if I use 4x launchers and not 5). Same principle applies if I use Target Painter and drop LSE - I lose shield hp and shield recharge rate. And it's supposed to be a passive tanked ship. So should all passive tanked Rattlesnake become obsolete, so we could use both drone damage and missile damage bonuses (and 5th launcher) effectively?

So what I'd like to see in a future fix for a Rattlesnake:
- 7th High slot: (with 6 slots I'll just continue to use 4x launchers and 2x Drone Link Augumentors), so i wouldn't have to compromise
or
- 7th Low slot: to better mix tank, missile and drone damage modules (with 6 slots I'll just stick to 3x tank + 3x DDA)
or
- just a bit higher drone bonus (even 300% would make a difference)
or
- missile explosion radius, or explosion velocity bonus
or
- any 2 of the above
or
- something else, that would make Guristas BS significantly better, the same way Cruiser and Frigate was changed, as when I look at my passive Rattlesnake - nothing will change this Tuesday (maybe a bit less EHP, due to lower armor amount;))


Ps.:
Just to sum up what people think about the new, Kronos Rattlesnake in comparison to other BSs: Pirate NI and T1, let the Market speak for itself:
Barghest - this is where it'll be, on the top of the list, after release ;) so I put it here just for fun
Nestor ~1540mil
Vindicator ~950mil
Nightmare ~920mil
Bhaalgorn ~835mil
Machariel ~780mil
Raven NI ~580mil
Rattlesnake ~550mil <---
Dominix NI ~520mil
Megathron NI ~520mil
Typhoon FI ~370mil
Dominix ~200mil
Raven ~185mil
I admit, the price went from 400mil (lowest in 12 months) to ~600mil, but as soon as everyone interested realized the Rattlesnake is not going to have 400% drone damage bonus, the price dropped and I predict it to drop even more. But still at the moment it's much cheaper then other pirate BSs and even some NI ones. A pirate faction ship, what a shame :(.
JOKE: I bet it were envious Mach and Vindi lobbies, who have influenced the devs to change Rattler in a way it'll stay basically the same and definitely not better then Mach and Vindi.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2995 - 2014-06-01 11:00:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ok lets take this stupidity in small bites.

Yes I know I can shoot spider drones with anything.
There are more small fast rats than spider drones.
Yes I know other ships can shoot them.
Yes I know there are different drones.
Yes All the little things that people pick out to try to dismiss concerns are not actually the important part.

So pay attention now.

The rattlesnake is less "pleasurable" " efficient" and " balanced" than before.

It now rewards micromanagement and is an inferior choice to the Caldari Navy Raven or the Dominix. In the area where it previously had the most use, which was in level 4 missions and anomalies

It certainly can still do them, it is not suddenly a bad ship. it can do more overall dps under certain circumstances. None of that is in dispute.

If that is what CCP want, then they have achieved their goal.

It is now a poorer ship after the rebalance in many ways, and better in a few.


One again you propose something "the rattlesnake is ..., it is inferior to ..." , but dont explain why you feel it is, you explain nothing.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2996 - 2014-06-01 11:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Barton Breau wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ok lets take this stupidity in small bites.

Yes I know I can shoot spider drones with anything.
There are more small fast rats than spider drones.
Yes I know other ships can shoot them.
Yes I know there are different drones.
Yes All the little things that people pick out to try to dismiss concerns are not actually the important part.

So pay attention now.

The rattlesnake is less "pleasurable" " efficient" and " balanced" than before.

It now rewards micromanagement and is an inferior choice to the Caldari Navy Raven or the Dominix. In the area where it previously had the most use, which was in level 4 missions and anomalies

It certainly can still do them, it is not suddenly a bad ship. it can do more overall dps under certain circumstances. None of that is in dispute.

If that is what CCP want, then they have achieved their goal.

It is now a poorer ship after the rebalance in many ways, and better in a few.


One again you propose something "the rattlesnake is ..., it is inferior to ..." , but dont explain why you feel it is, you explain nothing.



Well the reasons were explained in detail, many times, and I have no intention of posting them yet again to be accused of posting a wall of text once again, the devs are no longer reading this any way, and I say to you read it for yourself, if you cannot be bothered to read when people post, why should I do all the work for you?

Posting here has been wasting my time, I have had enough of the same old sniping.

Trying to discuss this has been like trying to teach a Turkey to sing.

It is frustrating, a waste of ones time and effort, and it annoys the turkey and just gets you pecked to death.

It just makes you wish for Christmas.Twisted ( or thanksgiving).

Ps the posting above yours had some valid points, you better ignore those too. Couldn't possibly be that not everyone is super excited could it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ziphonius
In Tenebris
#2997 - 2014-06-01 11:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziphonius
Thank you for your replies.

You were right regarding the DAMAGE bonus of missiles. I mean the faster "first damage" at the target.

After fiddling around theoretically with the setup, I think that it would still have been better to have at least 75m³ cargo even if you can only have 50MBit active. It would allow to run (unbonused) small drones to clean out frigs and later switch to sentries/heavies for the bigger stuff. Right now, you can not have full dps and versatility.

So... with that 25m³ more drone cargo, this fit would again be a good alround L4-runner (or whatever you intend to do) with "unbreakable shield". Right now you have to deal with either leaving one Sentry/Heavy in favour of light drones at home or replace 1-2 cruse launchers with rapid light missile ones. In both cases you loose a lot of DPS.

Arguing with the "yes, but nearly all fractions have KIN or THERM as second weakness": This is true. And still... on the one hand CCP wants to make the Rattle shine above the dominix and yet they still implement the gallente biggest weakness. "heavy KIN/THERM damage".

Next to it comes the fact that you can also carry only 2 more heavy/sentry drones. There are many situations (including some L4s) where you need the whole set of damage types. This was where the Rattle was shining. Changing the drone set in space and loading other missiles/torpedos (with basically the same damage values to expect) is now not any longer possible.

In the end, if you want to have good omni-Damage (sniper), you will need a Curator, a Bouncer and mentioned KIN/THERM cruise missiles. As you can see, you are loosing a lot of DPS just because you can not run the optimal DPS any more without the need to refit at a station.

And yes, this bothers me a lot. Right now all I need to know is a possible mission trigger. Everything else can be done in space with the rattle as she is NOW. In a few days, you are back to planning missions long in forecast.

The rattle looses with the modification now all abilities to re-adjust to changing environments in space.

So... CCP, in case you read this: I am not happy with the changes made. But having at least some more drone bay cargo, you can run L4s solo again without needing to sacrifice a lot of "new won" dps to light drones over heavy/sentries or light missile launchers...

Thank you in advance.

Regards.

Edit: I agree with epicurus ataraxia. We are saying the same basically. The Rattle lost a lot of its attractiveness due to its "feeling comfy" as it is right now. The rattle is a tank. Slow, taking lots of damage, dealing little damage. Whatever comes, the rattle could deal with it. At least long enough to kill everything preventing me from warping away. That was how I get to know and love my rattle. Now she is just a dominix with less choices in drones, trying to compensate with some more damage type in missiles. I am reconsidering returning to the dominix. That ship has at least the drone variety I need... (By the way... I flew that ship before choosing the rattlesnake over the domi. Knowing of the "shortcomings" of the old Rattle...)
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2998 - 2014-06-01 11:27:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Well the reasons were explained in detail, many times, and I have no intention of posting them yet again to be accused of posting a wall of text once again, the devs are no longer reading this any way, and I say to you read it for yourself, if you cannot be bothered to read when people post, why should I do all the work for you?

Posting here has been wasting my time, I have had enough of the same old sniping.

Trying to discuss this has been like trying to teach a Turkey to sing.

It is frustrating, a waste of ones time and effort, and it annoys the turkey and just gets you pecked to death.

It just makes you wish for Christmas.Twisted ( or thanksgiving).


Interesting, you dont seem to have any problems posting your claims over and over and over and over again, but as soon as you have to write anything of substance...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2999 - 2014-06-01 11:28:25 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Well the reasons were explained in detail, many times, and I have no intention of posting them yet again to be accused of posting a wall of text once again, the devs are no longer reading this any way, and I say to you read it for yourself, if you cannot be bothered to read when people post, why should I do all the work for you?

Posting here has been wasting my time, I have had enough of the same old sniping.

Trying to discuss this has been like trying to teach a Turkey to sing.

It is frustrating, a waste of ones time and effort, and it annoys the turkey and just gets you pecked to death.

It just makes you wish for Christmas.Twisted ( or thanksgiving).


Interesting, you dont seem to have any problems posting your claims over and over and over and over again, but as soon as you have to write anything of substance...





Good troll, I almost bit.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3000 - 2014-06-01 11:30:29 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Ps the posting above yours had some valid points, you better ignore those too. Couldn't possibly be that not everyone is super excited could it?


Yes, they were valid points, but none of them seem to explain your claims, none of the apparent lackings of the new rattler (just 1 utility slot , etc) makes the rattler subpar to the raven or domi, and does not even seem to make it less pleasurable.