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Looking for some Maelstrom/L4 advice
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Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#21 - 2014-05-26 21:51:42 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
I have used an arty Mael for missions ages ago and never had issues with it.

Setup included 1400mm guns, though. The idea was to split it into 4 groups (2+2+2+2) and micro them so you use just enough damage to alpha each destroyer/frig/battlecruiser. It required some fitting sacrifices but you could still have ample space for tank (shield boost amp, XL shield booster which you only pulse every now and then, 2 separate hardeners) and projection (tracking computer, tracking enhancers, 3 gyros). A MJD makes it a breeze to gain distance to snipe down npcs so you end up taking very little damage and cross gates quickly if you master the jumping angles and such. Just make sure you bring a flight of medium and light drones to deal with any stuff that ends up close.

The biggest advantage of using large artys is that they fire slowly and make good use of faction ammo even in PVE. It was extremly cheap to stock up in them and gave you the advantage of packing just shy to 700 dps and a nice ~10k alpha at ranges past 40 KM.

It's effective, but not the best ship if you plan on semi afking missions, though.



Just shy of 700dps on an arty mael tells me that u used a super pimp fit+skills+quake on a Mael, all 5 skills+quake or u are including drones... Arty anything will never be effective in missions.


just for your information the fit i linked has 600 gun dps (with t1 ammo) and effective drones in drone control range so statwise it looks pretty effective.


With that tank u really wont be able to fight at garde optimals even with the scope chip and omni and past that into sniping ranges u will lose alot of your 600 gun dps. Also the gun dps is with all lvl5. Interesting way of giving a 3.3mil character fittingsuggestions. With the skills your fit needs he might just aswell fly a varg and never having to bother with arties gain.


actually u do 60km u take the gardes for fast moving small stuff and the arties on bc and bs's first i dont say that it will work 100% as i havent flown the mael in a long time. I just said that the stats with proper use look promising.


Maybe u break 55km on those gardes Optimal+Falloff. Lets say that they might work ok at 45-50km.

U are taking a paperthin sniperfit into dangerous territory with that fit.

What Im saying is that if u have the skills to fly your fit u can fly alot better things with the same skills. A Typhoon with T1 launchers and a mix of 3-4 in missile skills would actually do better and even tank better.

Now a Mael with all relevant skills to 4, will do about 450 gun DPS and gardes will reach to about 42km (optimal+falloff).

Either make the AC mael work or fit a sniper mael for range and gun dps.

I would cross train into missiles for a few Days and get missile skills to 4 for the essensial ones and 3 on the projection skills. U can actually save alot of time on the projection skills when quicktraining into cruises. With this u can safely spam missiles from 100km+ while safely cut down on tank for application mods and rigs (might need a projection rig though). Also, there is no real reason not to use faction ammo on a sniperfit.

While Im spamming missiles Id train straight into a Vargur and leaving Large projectiles at 4 until Im flying the vargur itself.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-05-26 22:46:21 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:


Maybe u break 55km on those gardes Optimal+Falloff. Lets say that they might work ok at 45-50km.

U are taking a paperthin sniperfit into dangerous territory with that fit.

What Im saying is that if u have the skills to fly your fit u can fly alot better things with the same skills. A Typhoon with T1 launchers and a mix of 3-4 in missile skills would actually do better and even tank better.

Now a Mael with all relevant skills to 4, will do about 450 gun DPS and gardes will reach to about 42km (optimal+falloff).

Either make the AC mael work or fit a sniper mael for range and gun dps.

I would cross train into missiles for a few Days and get missile skills to 4 for the essensial ones and 3 on the projection skills. U can actually save alot of time on the projection skills when quicktraining into cruises. With this u can safely spam missiles from 100km+ while safely cut down on tank for application mods and rigs (might need a projection rig though). Also, there is no real reason not to use faction ammo on a sniperfit.

While Im spamming missiles Id train straight into a Vargur and leaving Large projectiles at 4 until Im flying the vargur itself.


actually im using a CNR cheap fit and rock missions when i do missions (12-15M bounty tick on most missions). My tank is equally low and i have only a few missions where i need the mjd to safely tank distance
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#23 - 2014-05-26 23:13:40 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
actually im using a CNR cheap fit and rock missions when i do missions (12-15M bounty tick on most missions). My tank is equally low and i have only a few missions where i need the mjd to safely tank distance



How do u manage that? On a CNR u can fit 2 TPs, 1 AB and 1 MJD in mids and still manage to fit a way stronger tank. If u are going for the sentry+cruise setup u lose the ab for a mobile depot+mjd and still outtank the mael.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-05-27 00:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
actually im using a CNR cheap fit and rock missions when i do missions (12-15M bounty tick on most missions). My tank is equally low and i have only a few missions where i need the mjd to safely tank distance



How do u manage that? On a CNR u can fit 2 TPs, 1 AB and 1 MJD in mids and still manage to fit a way stronger tank. If u are going for the sentry+cruise setup u lose the ab for a mobile depot+mjd and still outtank the mael.


last post on that because we r derailing pretty badly.

[Raven Navy Issue, mission]

8x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Inferno Fury Cruise Missile)

Large Micro Jump Drive
X-Large Clarity Ward Booster I
Domination EM Ward Amplifier
Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
2x Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)

F-89 Synchronized Signal Amplifier
4x Ballistic Control System II

2x Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

5x Hammerhead II
1x Hammerhead II
5x Hobgoblin II
3x Hobgoblin II

thats what im rocking + implants it gets me to 937 missile dps and 254 tank against sansha. but i give u that the mael i linked will be weaker.
Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-05-28 14:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Starkey
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
I have used an arty Mael for missions ages ago and never had issues with it.

Setup included 1400mm guns, though. The idea was to split it into 4 groups (2+2+2+2) and micro them so you use just enough damage to alpha each destroyer/frig/battlecruiser. It required some fitting sacrifices but you could still have ample space for tank (shield boost amp, XL shield booster which you only pulse every now and then, 2 separate hardeners) and projection (tracking computer, tracking enhancers, 3 gyros). A MJD makes it a breeze to gain distance to snipe down npcs so you end up taking very little damage and cross gates quickly if you master the jumping angles and such. Just make sure you bring a flight of medium and light drones to deal with any stuff that ends up close.

The biggest advantage of using large artys is that they fire slowly and make good use of faction ammo even in PVE. It was extremly cheap to stock up in them and gave you the advantage of packing just shy to 700 dps and a nice ~10k alpha at ranges past 40 KM.

It's effective, but not the best ship if you plan on semi afking missions, though.



Just shy of 700dps on an arty mael tells me that u used a super pimp fit+skills+quake on a Mael, all 5 skills+quake or u are including drones... Arty anything will never be effective in missions.


I am including drones and using faction ammo since it's so cheap on a ship like this. And this was back when I had ~6m SP or less.

I've made a signature. I hope you're enjoying it. www.evetrademaster.com - web based asset manager & profit tracker
Qalix
Long Jump.
#26 - 2014-05-28 16:28:16 UTC
Without knowing your exact skills, having only 3.3m sp leads me to believe you're a little too "weak" for a Maelstrom. They are incredibly skill intensive in just about every way imaginable. Cap skills, as you have noticed, are critical to the Mael, but gun skills and tracking in particular are critical too. If you're not trained to 5s in most of the relevant fitting and gunnery skills, you'd probably do better in another ship.

In the most general sense, range is the single most important variable in L4s. It's the reason that the most common fits are either MJD and sentry fits or MJD cruise missile fits (mach aside). Range is tank, but it's also straightforward movement. They approach you, it takes time, you pound them down before they ever close. For arty fits, its the best way to overcome tracking issues.

Depending on the skill training times involved for you (you don't mention your missile skills), you might consider using a typhoon with cruise missiles instead. They're cheaper than a mael and with range, you'll worry less about tank and the tanking you do can be handled with a burst from the shield reps, rather than trying to perma rep with a cap booster. It's also worth noting that if you're going to be burning cap charges, you could use an ASB instead, probably to greater effect (i'm not doing the math on that, sorry!) and free up a slot for a hardener.

The one other thing you might want to look into is whether you're handling mission triggers correctly. It could be you're creating a problem for yourself that fitting alone can't handle.
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#27 - 2014-05-29 07:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nad'x Hapax
Nick Starkey wrote:
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
I have used an arty Mael for missions ages ago and never had issues with it.

Setup included 1400mm guns, though. The idea was to split it into 4 groups (2+2+2+2) and micro them so you use just enough damage to alpha each destroyer/frig/battlecruiser. It required some fitting sacrifices but you could still have ample space for tank (shield boost amp, XL shield booster which you only pulse every now and then, 2 separate hardeners) and projection (tracking computer, tracking enhancers, 3 gyros). A MJD makes it a breeze to gain distance to snipe down npcs so you end up taking very little damage and cross gates quickly if you master the jumping angles and such. Just make sure you bring a flight of medium and light drones to deal with any stuff that ends up close.

The biggest advantage of using large artys is that they fire slowly and make good use of faction ammo even in PVE. It was extremly cheap to stock up in them and gave you the advantage of packing just shy to 700 dps and a nice ~10k alpha at ranges past 40 KM.

It's effective, but not the best ship if you plan on semi afking missions, though.



Just shy of 700dps on an arty mael tells me that u used a super pimp fit+skills+quake on a Mael, all 5 skills+quake or u are including drones... Arty anything will never be effective in missions.


I am including drones and using faction ammo since it's so cheap on a ship like this. And this was back when I had ~6m SP or less.


I get about 670DPS with arties alone but I still see it as a waste of SPs. Like I said, ull get way better results if u train missiles for a few days and go Typhoon. Sniping within drone ranges is a bad idea. If I could pull 700DPS at 80+ kms then maybe I would try it out. high damage faction ammo will not allow that. 670DPS at 40-43km optimal (even if arties work fairly well in falloff) falls in the category of insanely ineffective.

What Ive been trying to say is that for a 3.3mil SP character, putting a few SPs in missiles and go Typhoon is a good investment for a new character while w8ing for the Varg/Mach. Like the man above me said, in this case Typhoon tank=range tank + better dps and at way longer ranges.
Odins Raktor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-05-29 15:05:29 UTC
Coming from someone who struggled his way through ****** gun skills a long time ago, go missiles first.

You hardly have to throw any skills into cruise missile to make them much more effective then a T1 gun. Guns are extreeeeeemy skill intensive and honestly until you get all of those supporting skills and T2 guns you will feel like you're missing something. Once you have t2 guns and all of the supporting skills at 4 you'll have a blast using guns, but till then prepare to struggle through alot of missions if you're doing them outside of Minmatar space.

Go ahead and convo me up in game if you're still not sure.
Euripedies
Hot Droppin Cherry Poppers
#29 - 2014-06-02 20:05:51 UTC
Qalix wrote:


In the most general sense, range is the single most important variable in L4s.


^
II This,
and:
when in doubt fit long range, 40 km+, speed tank 600+m/s if you can, don't use MWD in missions, use an AB, the mwd bloom increases the damage you take.
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