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PVE vs PVP
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Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#1 - 2014-05-28 06:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
There should not be so much difference between PVE and PVP.

New player should be able to learn PVP while doing PVE missions. PVE fittings should be more like PVP fits even if they could be more specialized because of NPC specialization (resit and damage type, type of EWAR)

But for te moment, rating is boring and quite illogic as explained in this article http://evenews24.com/2014/05/27/how-pve-should-work-in-eve-online/.
It is true that pirates should not be there waiting to be attacked.
The NPC mechanics should be more PVP like. Game mechanics should not be different between players and NPCs. For example, no NPC frigates should be able to ECM or target at 200km.
When you face a NPC fleet you should be able to see a strategy even if it is a very simple one.
Frigates rush you to tackle/web BS and BC are doing damage, specialized ships are repairing the fleet and aplly Ewar. Some Waves have a FC that worth much more bounty and have much more loot, he warps off if its fleet is about to lose the fight though. The rest of the fleet warps of when he is destroyed too. It is a Dread or an Officer ….
When you arrive on them Pirates are already doing something. They protect a stronghold, or they attack a convoy or a mining fleet (a player or a NPC one)… You can find them by warping on the convoy, the mining fleet or their stronghold. Or perharps it is them that come to you.
I you want to play pirate, you can also attack NPC convoys or NPC Mining Fleet. If you do so, It is a NPC defense fleet that is coming of the same NPC corpo. They don’t have bounties but they have loots that you can take (So yes pirates need more cargohold)
While you are fighting the NPC defense, it is possible that pirates come to fight everyone and steal the convoy…
These mechanics make the fights less predictable and more tactic. If you add the risk to be engage by other player, I think the game would become really more fun.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
fudface
ACME-INC
#2 - 2014-05-28 09:58:16 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
There should not be so much difference between PVE and PVP.

New player should be able to learn PVP while doing PVE missions. PVE fittings should be more like PVP fits even if they could be more specialized because of NPC specialization (resit and damage type, type of EWAR)

But for te moment, rating is boring and quite illogic as explained in this article http://evenews24.com/2014/05/27/how-pve-should-work-in-eve-online/.
It is true that pirates should not be there waiting to be attacked.
The NPC mechanics should be more PVP like. Game mechanics should not be different between players and NPCs. For example, no NPC frigates should be able to ECM or target at 200km.
When you face a NPC fleet you should be able to see a strategy even if it is a very simple one.
Frigates rush you to tackle/web BS and BC are doing damage, specialized ships are repairing the fleet and aplly Ewar. Some Waves have a FC that worth much more bounty and have much more loot, he warps off if its fleet is about to lose the fight though. The rest of the fleet warps of when he is destroyed too. It is a Dread or an Officer ….
When you arrive on them Pirates are already doing something. They protect a stronghold, or they attack a convoy or a mining fleet (a player or a NPC one)… You can find them by warping on the convoy, the mining fleet or their stronghold. Or perharps it is them that come to you.
I you want to play pirate, you can also attack NPC convoys or NPC Mining Fleet. If you do so, It is a NPC defense fleet that is coming of the same NPC corpo. They don’t have bounties but they have loots that you can take (So yes pirates need more cargohold)
While you are fighting the NPC defense, it is possible that pirates come to fight everyone and steal the convoy…
These mechanics make the fights less predictable and more tactic. If you add the risk to be engage by other player, I think the game would become really more fun.



Add a few missions with rats that act like capsuleers, something like ship popt, then their pod ransomed then pods them, for that real pvp experience. maybe smack talks to them in local, possibly follows them to the station and camps them for days on end?

my 2 isk worth
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#3 - 2014-05-28 10:19:41 UTC
fudface wrote:



Add a few missions with rats that act like capsuleers, something like ship popt, then their pod ransomed then pods them, for that real pvp experience. maybe smack talks to them in local, possibly follows them to the station and camps them for days on end?



Excellent idea!! :-)
No let such ugly methods to Goons and other bad people like them....

It is about game mechanics not game experience.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#4 - 2014-05-28 10:19:52 UTC
So NPC acts more like Players? What's the point in NPCs at all then? Let's all just go PvP because that's the way "it's meant to be".

Personally, I thought it was a article\suggestion but from the comments I noted several good points but none stands out more than:

Quote:
So effectively cutting out the little guy (possibly a noob) who is in an NPC\small corp from ninja-mining and making his way up in EvE and letting the bigger entities have more


The whole article basically goes against what PvE is and turning PvE into PvP but with NPCs and that, IMO, quite laughable. Might as well just scrap NPC's and make everyone PvP.

As for your suggestion that "It is true that pirates should not be there waiting to be attacked." I say yes they should. You get a mission from an Agent which is based upon the latest intel. You go to the location because that were they are sighted. No one is going to wait around for NPC's to spawn.

If you want NPC protecting something try Incursions or Anoms\DEDs.

Want NPC Logistics again Incursions have them along with Boosters and actually ON-GRID Boosters believe it or not.

New players do learn resist types, damage types, racial variants, which NPCs ECM with what from doing missions and how to counter them, I'm not really sure which missions you've done but I think you may need to do some more.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-05-28 10:33:23 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:


It is about game mechanics not game experience.



But you just said it's about teaching people to PVP via the PVE system...
fudface
ACME-INC
#6 - 2014-05-28 10:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: fudface
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
fudface wrote:



Add a few missions with rats that act like capsuleers, something like ship popt, then their pod ransomed then pods them, for that real pvp experience. maybe smack talks to them in local, possibly follows them to the station and camps them for days on end?



Excellent idea!! :-)
No let such ugly methods to Goons and other bad people like them....

It is about game mechanics not game experience.


when a new pilot in the Royal Air force trains to fly, they get to fly prop planes then jet provosts(PVE)

once trained they go to an operational conversion unit where they learn to fight (PVP)

making the missions more random and behave more like capsuleers, to my mind, is the way to go.

how about putting in a few missions that your not meant to get out of with your ship,
or your pod Big smile

my 2 isk worth

my 2 isk worth
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#7 - 2014-05-28 10:35:47 UTC
In fact I think that PVP and PVE should be melted.
I think players should receive PVP missions from NPC, and NPC should receive misssions from players that could become PVP.
For example a NPC could give a mission to find and destroy a player with a Bounty on him and a Bad Standing with the NPC corpo.
A player with the good standings, could give an order to a NPC corp to mine and/or transport goods for him. With the risk that these NPC would be ganked. He could escort this convoy if he want.
A player with good standings could pay a NPC corp to have a NPC escort.

It would give opportunity for player to attack the NPC escort or the NPC convay and/or the other Players.

A player with two accounts could of course create a mission with one and attack it with the other... It is not a problem as it become a way to do PVE. And with the risk that other players come to change the plans...

PVE will always be a little different thant PVP as NPC will always be predictable.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#8 - 2014-05-28 10:52:17 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
In fact I think that PVP and PVE should be melted.
I think players should receive PVP missions from NPC, and NPC should receive misssions from players that could become PVP.
For example a NPC could give a mission to find and destroy a player with a Bounty on him and a Bad Standing with the NPC corpo.
A player with the good standings, could give an order to a NPC corp to mine and/or transport goods for him. With the risk that these NPC would be ganked. He could escort this convoy if he want.
A player with good standings could pay a NPC corp to have a NPC escort.

It would give opportunity for player to attack the NPC escort or the NPC convay and/or the other Players.

A player with two accounts could of course create a mission with one and attack it with the other... It is not a problem as it become a way to do PVE. And with the risk that other players come to change the plans...

PVE will always be a little different thant PVP as NPC will always be predictable.


Well you've confused me.

Why would anyone give cargo to an NPC to haul when 1) do it themselves 2) Contract Red Frog\Black Frog 3) Courier Contracts.
You're effectively asking for more NPC and less Player gameplay there...not a good thing.

Bounty Hunters are a career path people chose to take so there's no need for NPCs to do it.

NPC convoys can already be attacked and looted. You need to plan well and have time and patience but it can be done very successfully if you know what you're doing.

I think you've missed the point of the sandbox whereby we're given the tools (sand) and we generate the content in the box. When CCP removed most things from being NPC manufactured it was awesome! I'm all for getting stuff away from being NPC and more player driven as that adds content.

PvE should remain for those that want to play in that style and not be forced to play by someone else's idea that their way is the "only way to play". PvE should be predictable to some extent for instance teaching new people how shield hardeners work, RR, ECM, tactics and what to look out for in a non-stressful environment.

Contrary to popular belief PvE actually does generate content, look at the amount of ships (shiny ships at that) that were lost when the Stratios and Nestor were touted and the SoE Agents were promoted. And I do mean shiiiiiiiny ships getting blown up. That generates economy, production, research, mining, logistics, trading, courier etc.

What PvE needs it an overall but not towards PvP. I honestly believe that the fits used should be more PvP orientated to enable a PvE player to be better able to fend for themselves should they be set upon as opposed to the league between PvP and PvE fits however the format should not, I'll repeat SHOULD NOT, force people into a playstyle that is not their choosing.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#9 - 2014-05-28 10:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Danika Princip wrote:
Cardano Firesnake wrote:


It is about game mechanics not game experience.



But you just said it's about teaching people to PVP via the PVE system...


Yes, the idea is to better understand the effect of ranges, speed, tracking, logistics, ewar, tanking, but with NPC.

Such NPC that use PVP tactics, and that are working like Players. Not NPC that are not impacted by ECM, Neutra, that have incredible modules that ECM you at 200km but never loot. And that pop magically near you, instead of comming from a warp, that don't try to run when all is lost, that always trigger the same way.

You can for example imagine that the trigger is not a particular ship. But the trigger is when they are less than 3 times than you or when they lost all of their logi or their FC they try to warp out or call for help. So you would have to choose who you want to destroy as you know that some of the NPC will run before another wave will arrive.

Of course there is a part of game experience but not the part typically human of rude talk. NPC do not need to take pleasure on crushing a player. It is reserved to real people :-)

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#10 - 2014-05-28 11:26:42 UTC
PVE in this game is terrible ,boring no story and generally you just do it to make isk.A lot of people have suggested PVP missions or similar ,bosses,more challenging random PVE events etc but in my 2 year of play I have never seen a PVE improvement from CCP.They only fix ships "balance" ships weapons etc.Nothing more or exciting for people who want to PVE a little.

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2014-05-28 11:55:21 UTC
Egravant Alduin wrote:
PVE in this game is terrible ,boring no story and generally you just do it to make isk.A lot of people have suggested PVP missions or similar ,bosses,more challenging random PVE events etc but in my 2 year of play I have never seen a PVE improvement from CCP.They only fix ships "balance" ships weapons etc.Nothing more or exciting for people who want to PVE a little.



Apocryha - 2009
Incursions - 2010

a reduced version of the "Sleeper / Incursion AI" was brought to belt and mission rats somewhere in 2012, IIRC.

When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.

I would expect some "new PVE" stuff to come near the end of this release cycle, probably after CCP Seagull et. al. activate the player-gates. With that said ... I expect CCP to blind-side us with it, and not even hint that the dangers on the "other side" will be significantly harder than what we've faced in the past.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-05-28 12:05:18 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
I expect CCP to blind-side us with it, and not even hint that the dangers on the "other side" will be significantly harder than what we've faced in the past.


I do hope so, that'll be much more fun (from someone who will be jumping through *into* the unknown dangers given the chance...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2014-05-28 14:59:09 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.


i dnt remember ppl dying in droves, but ppl certainly started to lose their drones. there are still whine threads popping up now about how they want the changes rolled back. Lol

id like any idea that makes PvE more of a challenge and closer to PvP. Randomly generated spawns, fleet compositions designed with a tactic in mind. That sort of stuff. The hard part would be getting the AI to be smart though. its inevitable that players will learn everything about any new behavior and it will become dull again very quickly.


another thread

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#14 - 2014-05-28 15:28:13 UTC
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#15 - 2014-05-28 15:54:18 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.


i dnt remember ppl dying in droves, but ppl certainly started to lose their drones. there are still whine threads popping up now about how they want the changes rolled back. Lol

id like any idea that makes PvE more of a challenge and closer to PvP. Randomly generated spawns, fleet compositions designed with a tactic in mind. That sort of stuff. The hard part would be getting the AI to be smart though. its inevitable that players will learn everything about any new behavior and it will become dull again very quickly.


another thread


I think he is referring to when Incursions were first launched and people flew into fiery hells...never to emerge with their ships intact.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#16 - 2014-05-28 16:04:01 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.


i dnt remember ppl dying in droves, but ppl certainly started to lose their drones. there are still whine threads popping up now about how they want the changes rolled back. Lol

id like any idea that makes PvE more of a challenge and closer to PvP. Randomly generated spawns, fleet compositions designed with a tactic in mind. That sort of stuff. The hard part would be getting the AI to be smart though. its inevitable that players will learn everything about any new behavior and it will become dull again very quickly.


another thread


I think he is referring to when Incursions were first launched and people flew into fiery hells...never to emerge with their ships intact.


That, and the sleepers too.

So much surprise NPC buttseks from those two expansions.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2014-05-28 16:14:30 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.


i dnt remember ppl dying in droves, but ppl certainly started to lose their drones. there are still whine threads popping up now about how they want the changes rolled back. Lol

id like any idea that makes PvE more of a challenge and closer to PvP. Randomly generated spawns, fleet compositions designed with a tactic in mind. That sort of stuff. The hard part would be getting the AI to be smart though. its inevitable that players will learn everything about any new behavior and it will become dull again very quickly.


another thread


I think he is referring to when Incursions were first launched and people flew into fiery hells...never to emerge with their ships intact.


That, and the sleepers too.

So much surprise NPC buttseks from those two expansions.


ohhhh. yes...we tested ourselves in the belts a bit and saw someones faction mega die to two cruiser rats.

Then there was a site intended for 10-15 players. we jumped in with a fleet of 30 and still had to bail. those that were tackled lost their ships. i lost a phoon to my first attempt at an incursion. Bear

It was so much fun i immediately bought another and came straight back out.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Shivanthar
#18 - 2014-05-28 20:52:20 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


When the features came out, people died in droves because they were completely unfit for the challenges that these new features provided.


i dnt remember ppl dying in droves, but ppl certainly started to lose their drones. there are still whine threads popping up now about how they want the changes rolled back. Lol

id like any idea that makes PvE more of a challenge and closer to PvP. Randomly generated spawns, fleet compositions designed with a tactic in mind. That sort of stuff. The hard part would be getting the AI to be smart though. its inevitable that players will learn everything about any new behavior and it will become dull again very quickly.


another thread


This. Need some pve love, whether making it much harder, or broader. We demand harder and more dynamic content!

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Sorana Bonzari
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-05-28 21:05:12 UTC
No

PVP is good how it is because it takes tactics, and personal skill to win "small fleet / solo"

PVE all it takes is the right ship fitting and the ability to watch a movie at the same time so you don't get board.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#20 - 2014-05-28 21:37:49 UTC
Sorana Bonzari wrote:
No

PVP is good how it is because it takes tactics, and personal skill to win "small fleet / solo"

PVE all it takes is the right ship fitting and the ability to watch a movie at the same time so you don't get board.


Um. That's the point. OP is saying that this is a bad thing.

Overhaul Dscan!
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