These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

First post First post First post
Author
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#2461 - 2014-05-27 07:19:36 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
'Frictionless' movement of goods around highsec is undesirable. It leads to all regions of empire having nearly identical prices, as any differential in item prices between regions is quickly 'zeroed' when massive quantities can be autopiloted around in a single trip. Bad for traders and makes for a very uninteresting economic landscape.

I don't recall a significantly flatter market existing in the days when freighters didn't drop loot. The profitability of moving goods is dependent on more than the friction of transport.
There may well be a break-point at which freighter EHP really tips - but I don't know what it is and I'm not sure anyone else does either. Ignoring the persistence of outdated information the value of goods being shipped in higher EHP would either remain the same (bulk goods constrained by capacity) or increase in proportion according to the most publically recognised "gank threshhold". Only the risk takers, those who fill their freighter with Cal Navy Invulns or PLEX, would form any reduction in gank profit...
Perhaps I'm not thinking about enough aspects, not taking enough things into account, I'm still trying to work out how to get a fittable freighter back to at least the utility of a current freighter...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2462 - 2014-05-27 07:32:42 UTC
Sacrificing tank/dps makes no difference at all to carriers/dreadnoughts/jump freighters/black ops jumping to stations.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#2463 - 2014-05-27 13:02:58 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Today, pre-Kronos - if you want to move multiple billions in valuable goods of moderate volume, your choices are:

1. Orcas can be tanked up to around 270K EHP - and they can haul around 60-70K m^3.
(This hauling profile obsoletes DSTs which have both smaller EHP, less utility, and less cargo.)
2. Freighters are around 150-200K EHP, for 900K+ m^3.
3. Jump Freighters between 250-300K EHP, with 350K+ m^3.

See the pattern? All of the large-volume haulers top out in the 250-300K EHP range.

If you'd get your numbers right, you'd realize that there is no such pattern. Freighters are currently between 174k-201k EHP, Jumpfreighters between 315k-364k EHP.

Herr Wilkus wrote:
At those EHP levels, you aren't interesting to gankers until your cargo value goes north of 2.5-3 Billion ISK

Ah, that legend again. 2.5-3 billion might be the threshold for you personally, it certainly is far far lower for many other ganker groups. Just check the killboard of the last few weeks. Half or more of the ganked freighters don't even reach that value even if you include the price for the hull and I already let the ones out which have plastic wraps in it. I didn't include Burn Jita btw. Ganking freighters is cheap compared to the value of the target. 15 T2 Catalysts and you kill any freighter in a 0.5 system. At the current price of 10 mil per T2 gank Catalyst and a droprate of 50% you already break even at 300 mil - hell, let's say 500 mil to be generous. After that it's pure profit. How much profit is "enough" to execute a gank depends solely on the gank group and a great many are obviously far cheaper than you. There is a good reason why Red Frog doesn't accept cargo values beyond 1 bil for T1 freighter hauls. But why am I telling you all this? I'm pretty sure that you already know it.


Herr Wilkus wrote:

This new iteration is a mess however, as large-volume cargo movers are having their practical EHP doubled....or tripled.
This radically increases the ISK-value of mid-range cargo that can be moved without risk of a 'profitable' gank occurring.



1.Kronos Orcas are going to see their EHP pushed above 500K EHP range, if not more, due the combination of the new Hull Rigs and DC II, and still hauling around 60-70K m^3 general cargo, plus additional specialized bays.
2.Kronos Freighters are going to have a EHP/cargo profile superior to what JFs have today. (300-350K EHP with 350K m^3 cargo.)
3.Kronos Jump Freighters are going completely into carebear wet-dream world, shielding a whopping 130m^3 or so behind 620-720K EHP. (and they naturally retain the 'easy gank escape button')

Again some real numbers that are not pulled out of thin air:
1. Kronos Orca: 415k EHP with DC II, T2 bulkheads in lowslot and rigs, 2x LSE, 2x Invu Field. 423,5k overheated and a pitiful cargohold of below 70k which is even split into regular and fleet hangar (not counting the ore hangar for obvious reasons). You can't even put a single BS sized hull in it.
2. Kronos Freighters: 282k-367k EHP with 3x T2 Bulkheads and 410k-438k cargo, 165k-169k EHP with 3x cargo expanders
3. Kronos Jump Freighters: 507k-662k EHP with 3x T2 Bulkheads and <130k cargo, 297k-313k EHP with 3x cargo expanders

You see: EHP values aren't tripled as you claim, not even doubled, not even close to doubled.

Herr Wilkus wrote:
I submit that this is a radically different game state to what we have today (and have always had) in EVE, and changes of this nature should be done with far more care than this knee-jerk reaction to whine-naught death threats.

It is, but other than you think. What makes you think that all people will suddenly grow a brain and fit for an appropriate tank? Did that happen with mining barges after they were buffed? Hell, no. What you're also forgetting is that when the industrial changes hit far more people have to move stuff around in order to use cheap manufacturing slots. Do you really think they all fit for tank and not for convenience?

Herr Wilkus wrote:
Fozzie - trust me, I understand. I know how much it hurts inside when the nasty carebears say ugly things about you in the forums. But that doesn't mean we need three-quarters of a million hit point heavy haulers to make them like you again.

Really?

Disclaimer: above numbers originate from the updated EFT with Kronos data files. Skills all V, no boosters/implants.

P.S.: Apart from underlining and bold text markup, I'd also use different colors next time. Makes it all the more convincing. Maybe Fozzie likes pink ;)

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#2464 - 2014-05-27 13:16:50 UTC
Warr Akini wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
All in all I find the second iteration of the changes well balanced. Freighter pilots finally get a real choice and there will still be enough people with two or three cargo expanders flying around that can easily be ganked.


I'm definitely all for choice - as is EVE/CCP.

As long as it works in your favor, no doubt about that.

Warr Akini wrote:
However, "there will still be enough people" and "can easily be ganked" are two wild assumptions, based on no data whatsoever (for the first part) and a very skewed perception of the ease of freighter ganking (for the second part).

So, you really think all the lazy "highsec pubby shitlords" or whatever you call them today, suddenly grow a brain and fit for tank instead of convenience? Now *that's* what I'd call a "wild assumption". I'm sure an analysis of fittings of ganked mining barges would support your argument *ahem*.

For the rest, see my reply to Herr Wilkus.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Jin d'SaanGo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2465 - 2014-05-27 15:56:51 UTC
It's about time that we also get some hull tanking warfare links. That will work well with the proposed changes.
Warr Akini
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2466 - 2014-05-27 16:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Warr Akini
Sarah Flynt wrote:
So, you really think all the lazy "highsec pubby shitlords" or whatever you call them today, suddenly grow a brain and fit for tank instead of convenience? Now *that's* what I'd call a "wild assumption". I'm sure an analysis of fittings of ganked mining barges would support your argument *ahem*.

For the rest, see my reply to Herr Wilkus.


You'll notice I didn't try to make the assumption as to who will take what option - only point out the skewed EHP scale of said options. Of course, you probably did notice, and are trying to make a petty unjustified point anyway accentuated by sarcastic emotes and whatever it is you kids call them these days.

Mining barges can always find utility in expanding their cargohold or adding mining upgrade boosts and extending their time out in the fields or making themselves more time-efficient - freighters only having to carry a smaller courier have no utility in expanding their cargohold, something they can easily do when necessary, safely in dock. Apples and oranges.

For the rest, you still are not qualified to speak to the motivation of gankers.

We also spell it 'pubbie.'
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2467 - 2014-05-27 16:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Freighter pilots finally get a real choice and there will still be enough people with two or three cargo expanders flying around that can easily be ganked.


Yes they get to choose to lower their hull for the extra cargo space, which isn't a drawback at all because all of their tank is now in the armour or shields which only slightly lowers their total EHP compared to before anyway, bar the Nomad which gets more EHP.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2468 - 2014-05-27 17:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Sarah Flynt wrote:

>>Ah, that legend again. 2.5-3 billion might be the threshold for you personally, it certainly is far far lower for many other ganker groups. Just check the killboard of the last few weeks. Half or more of the ganked freighters don't even reach that value even if you include the price for the hull and I already let the ones out which have plastic wraps in it. I didn't include Burn Jita btw. Ganking freighters is cheap compared to the value of the target. 15 T2 Catalysts and you kill any freighter in a 0.5 system. At the current price of 10 mil per T2 gank Catalyst and a droprate of 50% you already break even at 300 mil


>>Again some real numbers that are not pulled out of thin air:

>>It is, but other than you think. What makes you think that all people will suddenly grow a brain and fit for an appropriate tank? Did that happen with mining barges after they were buffed? Hell, no. What you're also forgetting is that when the industrial changes hit far more people have to move stuff around in order to use cheap manufacturing slots. Do you really think they all fit for tank and not for convenience?

>>P.S.: Apart from underlining and bold text markup, I'd also use different colors next time. Makes it all the more convincing. Maybe Fozzie likes pink ;)



I was obviously estimating some of the EHP values from memory - and was including cheap 5% hull implants because people actually use those - and they are very significant. Rubicon JFs are even harder to kill than I'd estimated. My numbers were surprisingly good, especially on future Orcas. (And for someone being so pedantic - you do a remarkably bad job of estimating the cost of a T2 Catalyst. Thats also from memory.)

My point remains, this represents a massive EHP buff which will allow traders to convey FAR larger values of cargo around highsec with negligible risk. (and the risk is already quite low)

Further, Catalysts aren't the 'gank ship' of choice for freighters simply because they require 3x larger coordinated fleets. Merely using 15 of them is 'bare bones' and increases the chance of something going wrong and failing the gank. Sure, some people gank empty freighters, a few others might use ISBoxed Catalysts. But Talos fleets of 7 or more are the gold standard, by far the most likely ganking 'for profit' scenario - so that is what I use.

No, I'm quite sure that some people will fail-fit. And carebears never fail to impress me in that regard.
But a random Retriever in a belt and a trader hauling billions in a freighter or Jump Freighter are two completely different things. 'Full' freighters tend to be full of low value items like tritanium - making the Tanked Freighter the most likely scenario for potential for high value gank targets. When profitting from trade, M^3 is not as important as ISK value. M^3 it merely limits the range of items you can trade in. When dealing in mid-range market items (vs bulk raw materials) that can lead to a gank attack - 130 m^3 is a hell of a lot. A radical expansion in safety and capabilities.

Even today, waiting for a 2-3 Billion ISK freighter to come along can take quite a long time. As Warr Akini said - keeping a large number of people on standby waiting for a target is easier said than done - when they could be doing other things. Why do low value freighters sometimes get ganked? Its the "eh, we have this fleet together, but its late so we might as well blow up something" effect.

Try this - sit in Uedama, Niarja, or Balle. Sit there scanning freighters until a 6-8 Billion ISK freighter comes along. How long do you think you can keep 20-25 or so Talos pilots sitting still waiting for that kind of target to come by? Because that is what it will take to threaten Kronos Jump Freighters.

And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill.

P.S. Its just my way of telling Fozzie, "Bro, I've been there. I know how much carebear rage stings. Everytime miners send me hateful, threatening EVEmails, I cry a little inside. But Fozzie, you have to stay strong. We are doing it.....for them."
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#2469 - 2014-05-27 21:45:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't it take " a huge number" of defenders to defend against 120 attackers?

It should, not trying to suggest otherwise. I was pointing out that neither RR nor ECM was used to save the infamous 'repped' JF during Burn Jita.

So for gankers using catalysts you need around the same number of defender pilots to have a chance to fend off the attack, and it only works as long as the attacking fleet uses fragile ships like catalysts. Against an Alphanado fleet nothing helps. The freighter or JF just dies.

If the average risk of getting suicide ganked while flying a freighter in HiSec outside a wardec is low, then consider the boredom and strain on the 'defender fleet', who has to shepherd it everywhere. Seen in this context I find the comment from another post about the poor Talos ganker pilots, who have to wait *ages* for a sufficiently well stuffed JF to show itself, quite hilarious.

There is no practical defense against suicide ganking for everyday logistics or trading. Your only choice is to cross your fingers and hope you won't be selected for 'special treatment'.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.

Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#2470 - 2014-05-27 21:48:43 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill.

Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.

Ice Coldon
Coldon Mining
Axion Bionics
#2471 - 2014-05-27 23:30:59 UTC
One small point. If you are going to web your freighter, last I did it you needed 2 webber ships. This was because the webber got agression and had a timer before jumping thru the gate. Unless it was really far between gates the freighter would get their before the webber could jump.

So unless the mechanics have changed, you need 2 webber pilots so they can leap frog.

I expect most high sec freighters to go for tank. but I don't know the statistics of how many run full loads or partial.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2472 - 2014-05-28 00:07:08 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill.

Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK.


Ack, bad typo. Build about 6 a month, I should know that......
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2473 - 2014-05-28 01:06:48 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
And hell, Orcas haven't even gotten their balance pass yet. 450K EHP and 70K M^3 for a ship that costs only 350M? Sounds like a bargain when you consider it would take 15+ or so Taloses costing more than 1.5 Billion to kill.

Orcas currently cost around 640M ISK.


Ack, bad typo. Build about 6 a month, I should know that......

If you're building and selling for 350, sign me up :) lol


Either way, Orca/Rorq balance will come at some point..
Marsan
#2474 - 2014-05-28 02:23:57 UTC
Jin d'SaanGo wrote:
It's about time that we also get some hull tanking warfare links. That will work well with the proposed changes.


That would rock for battle orcas;-)

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#2475 - 2014-05-28 12:19:28 UTC
Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?

Adaptive Nanos and the variants:

3x Coreli ANP on Provi:
46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The same on a Charon ...
15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.

Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.

Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name.
Tramar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2476 - 2014-05-28 19:20:45 UTC
So having to use cargohold expanders to achieve the same level of cargo is good. But it will make freighters even slower. Srsly, they are slow enough.
Axe Coldon
#2477 - 2014-05-28 20:16:50 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?

Adaptive Nanos and the variants:

3x Coreli ANP on Provi:
46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The same on a Charon ...
15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.

Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.

Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name.


Well if they don't do anything about shield tanked freighters I plan to switch to the Amarr Freighter.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2478 - 2014-05-28 21:20:32 UTC
So now we'll be able to modify our freighters with 3 low slot modules, what's next, nitrous oxide and a big stereo? Slippery slope :P
ashley Eoner
#2479 - 2014-05-28 22:30:08 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Its been said, but any Dev input on the issue of the armour freighters having an advantage on tanking using low slots?

Adaptive Nanos and the variants:

3x Coreli ANP on Provi:
46000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The same on a Charon ...
15000 EHP with minimum 60% on explosive.

The Fenrir and Obelisk sit in the middle of course, Fenrir worse for armour significantly.

Thats a massive fundamental difference. Understandably hard to balance with no midslots and resulting penalties for using bulkheads to tank. This is amplified on the T2 variants ... the sudden change to lowslots from rigs may have created this blind spot.

Can we add some flavour to the shield variants - agility for the Fenrir, speed for the Charon ... make them worthwhile. Otherwise the tiny differences mean its a nerf in all but name.


Well if they don't do anything about shield tanked freighters I plan to switch to the Amarr Freighter.
Yeah at least teh providence is cool looking
Ivy Lyn Relintolde
Sanctuary of Shadoo's
#2480 - 2014-05-28 23:44:18 UTC
Alright So I haven't decided if i want to train for a freighter or not yet, I know with the Nerfed cargo it would still suit all my needs but with 3 low slots as well? That is interesting. Anyone have any Idea how much tank say a Providence would get out of a T2 Damage Control and 2 RF Bulkheads ( T2 )??

Because the way I see it you need like 5-6 Talos to Gank a freighter as is, and like 15 catalysts ( Depends on system level of course ). So would adding the DC II and RFB II's really make a big enough difference to allow freighter pilots to carry more than 600m at a time without extreme risk of getting ganked by a catalyst gang? Or 800m to avoid a Talos Gang? Or is it not enough tank to really matter?