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The Wishlist, 8 Years on

Author
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#21 - 2014-05-27 01:05:25 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:

Why would high concurrency make that hard?

30 people in a 25km2 area is way easier than 3000 in a 62500 km3 area.


Because more people shooting leads to more ballistic calculations. Even if you instance them like WoT does, you're looking at thousands and thousands of shots being calculated every second. Before time dialation, you'd have had a point, but now Eve has an automatic mechanism that slows down time to help lighten the load on the server when dealign with large scale engagements.

Further, big fleet fights with several thousand people are really an outlier. They happen, don't get me wrong, but are fairly unusual. It would all have to be tested, of course, but I think it's doable now with time dilation.
Ren Coursa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-05-27 07:04:35 UTC
Line of Sight & Firing Arcs.
Not sure i understand what the point of this would be, what would it bring to the table that warrants the dev time?


Multipurpose *anything*
eve is designed to be a trade of, if you want ecm drones you sacrifice your drone bays ability to hold damage. What would the trade of be if drones could do alittle bit of everything without making then useless? Seems like a nightmare to balance suitable for all different bay sizes and drone bonuses.


Boarding Actions
Don't hold your breath, most likely this was just an example of a legion map.


Ramming
No, this would not work and/or be a nightmare to code. The added content vs dev time and cost is way out of whack.


Self Destruct as a weapon
Would be kind of cool and shouldn't be too hard to code since smart bombs already exists.


Removal of gate ganks/blob warfare
Not removal, but if you spend the time to be safe i think you should be able to avoid them. My thoughts about this would be something like sending a probe through the gate and waiting for it to return with a readout of what's on grid on the other side.


Flack
Overlap with smart bombs and defender missiles.


Ship Crews
Always wanted this as well, question is what it would bring to the table that rigs and modules doesn't already bring. Runs the risk of being redundant. Thus making it wasteful to spend dev resources on it.


NPC Pilots
Much prefer people doing as much as possible in eve. And they already haul things.


The Q-ship
The concept is cool but it would break FW pvp. You scan a plex and make a decision to jump based on that. You don't know if they are inside or outside so scanning a novice and that returns an atron you jump in only to find a "Q" cruiser on the jump. Would make it unplayable.


Minefield
Coding something to appear differently for some people sounds hard and costly. Also seems like fleet fights would become a cluster ****.
Shivanthar
#23 - 2014-05-27 07:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Point is, I have a source, albeit an old one, and you have guesswork and assumption- I'll stick with mine for now, unless you manage to get CCP Falcon to answer you or something Cool


This! (=^.^=)
What do they say? "One bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" Blink

Bird: That link talking about crews.
Bush: Xenovenom's thoughts about crews.
This: Uriel's post.

O.o

Edit: I would like to see crew role behaving as a minor mechanic at least. Like if your ship doesn't explode and enemy chance of survival is low, your crew can be veterans, reloading your weapons in 9.5 seconds instead of 10 ^^

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#24 - 2014-05-27 07:42:02 UTC
Ren Coursa wrote:
Line of Sight & Firing Arcs.
Not sure i understand what the point of this would be, what would it bring to the table that warrants the dev time?


The ability to use terrain creatively to gain an advantage in PvP beyond having your battles at a station? Immersion? Plain ordinary logic that you can't shoot someone through a small veldspar moon?

Ren Coursa wrote:

Multipurpose *anything*
eve is designed to be a trade of, if you want ecm drones you sacrifice your drone bays ability to hold damage. What would the trade of be if drones could do alittle bit of everything without making then useless? Seems like a nightmare to balance suitable for all different bay sizes and drone bonuses.


In this case the trade off is drone bay space and bandwidth for versatility. These only work as well as the next size smaller drone, with all the space and bandwidth requirements of a larger one.

Ren Coursa wrote:

Flack
Overlap with smart bombs and defender missiles.


Tends to kill your own drones, plus all the issues using smart bombs anyplace but 0.0

Ren Coursa wrote:

Ship Crews
Always wanted this as well, question is what it would bring to the table that rigs and modules doesn't already bring. Runs the risk of being redundant. Thus making it wasteful to spend dev resources on it.


Depends on how you implement it. Base stats should be worse than a module, but crews should have the ability to improve over time.

Ren Coursa wrote:

The Q-ship
The concept is cool but it would break FW pvp. You scan a plex and make a decision to jump based on that. You don't know if they are inside or outside so scanning a novice and that returns an atron you jump in only to find a "Q" cruiser on the jump. Would make it unplayable.


You're basically saying that it''s a bad idea because it would require players to come up with new strategies? I wish to god we had that sort of reasoning around in the old days. We'd still have guns inside POS sheilds and no cap ships whatsoever.


Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-05-27 08:06:27 UTC
Quote:
8) Flack: The idea of an active high slot module that acted as a automated way to shoot down drones and missiles (basically CWIS for EvE) just seems logical to me. I can't imagine however far in the future this is that they would not be as advanced as a 20th century battleship.


+1

limit to one module per ship. 5km radius. needs charges.
Kinda like a smart bomb but without cap usage,
1k Alpha , 5s circle time

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Ren Coursa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-05-27 10:04:54 UTC
Ok i see what you're going for with the LoS, i really don't think it is realistic from a coding perspective. Imagine the vectors that would have to be calculated in large fleet fights to make sure nothing is covering your shoot. Insane. You would tidi fights of 50v50 in a heartbeat.

The price you pay for versatility in every other instance in eve is worse stats for many things instead of good stats for one thing. This drone would be useful for only a handful of ships since most ships that use drones in a meaningful way can just field different flights for different things.
The ships that can't do that often has such a small bay that you can't fit a larger drone in there anyways.
While i enjoy the concept of versatility, i just feel that this is impossible to balance in a way that both this drone and the normal drones stay viable.

Regarding crews you would have to have a ceiling on bonuses, that ceiling has to be high enough to warrant the dev time but low enough to not discourage pvp. If the ceiling is to high people would start to be hesitant to bring their highly leveled ships to the field, like implanted clones today. And it would be a mechanic only pve people would use. And if the bonuses is to small.. Why bother?
Seems like this sort of addition would be best suited for new mechanics all together, not as another rig slot that adds 2% shield boost.
If for instance boarding ever becomes a thing or PI becomes more involved this could serve a purpose.

I'm saying that it breaks it based on how plexes work. The tactic this would force would be to warp at a distance. Giving legitimate targets a 100% chance to run and preventing the Qship from killing anything. Solo and small gang Pvp would die since you would have to roam with enough people to guarantee that you could overcome whatever class this ship would be.
Would create a horrible dynamic.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-27 10:45:45 UTC
Ren Coursa wrote:
Would create a horrible dynamic.

Not necessarily, imo.

Regarding FW complexes, if a cruiser posing as a frig on dscan sits outside a novice or small, you can just gate slide.

In other cases, the Q module could maybe be balanced with a scan res penalty: if the guy is alone, you'd have time to say 'wtf?' and warp off. If he has a fast tackle friend, you'll have to deal just with the fast tackle at first, etc.

Needs careful thought and balancing, but it could be fun.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Ren Coursa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-05-27 10:58:38 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Ren Coursa wrote:
Would create a horrible dynamic.

Not necessarily, imo.

Regarding FW complexes, if a cruiser posing as a frig on dscan sits outside a novice or small, you can just gate slide.

In other cases, the Q module could maybe be balanced with a scan res penalty: if the guy is alone, you'd have time to say 'wtf?' and warp off. If he has a fast tackle friend, you'll have to deal just with the fast tackle at first, etc.

Needs careful thought and balancing, but it could be fun.


Depending on what ship you're in and size of the plex, sure.

As a whole i don't see it adding much. Sliding is 100% sure fire to escape so still just adds more escaping.
FW is designed to encourage even fights. No matter how you look at it this breaks that design either by enabling easier ganking or discouraging more fighting.
I can't speak for other areas of space but do we really need more ways to encourage asymmetrical fights?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-27 11:08:39 UTC
Ren Coursa wrote:
I can't speak for other areas of space but do we really need more ways to encourage asymmetrical fights?

YNOT? Big smile

It's all about the metagame anyway. Example: known Q-cruiser flying guy is sitting inside a medium posing as a frig. You warp in, grab point and call-in your corpmates waiting on gate in the system next door. \o/ Q-cruiser kill!

Again, not saying I'm 100% sure it would be great, but having more tools often leads to fun gameplay. You may disagree, but you also cannot honestly be 100% sure that it would be bad!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Ren Coursa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-27 11:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ren Coursa
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Ren Coursa wrote:
I can't speak for other areas of space but do we really need more ways to encourage asymmetrical fights?

YNOT? Big smile

It's all about the metagame anyway. Example: known Q-cruiser flying guy is sitting inside a medium posing as a frig. You warp in, grab point and call-in your corpmates waiting on gate in the system next door. \o/ Q-cruiser kill!

Again, not saying I'm 100% sure it would be great, but having more tools often leads to fun gameplay. You may disagree, but you also cannot honestly be 100% sure that it would be bad!


Nono, i like the concept. Not sure it would translate well across all the different areas of play.

While i agree with your point regarding meta the example is again about flying in numbers large enough to just straight turn the tables and again giving incentive to the gank or be ganked playstyle of eve. Personally i think we have enough of incentives to give eve the flavor but still have it be possible to roam solo. But its seriously close to only being about linked gangs jumping only on targets they are 100% going to wreck and running from everything else.

At the larger scale of things, even if those isolated situations occur the major impact this would have would be more caution, more gangs/ganks and more running away.

Personally, as a general rule, i want mechanics that gives incentives for more fights and for more even fights.
Iq Cadaen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-05-27 11:57:55 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

1) Line of Sight: Sadly, line of sight combat has yet to appear in the game. Which is sad, as it's actually not hard to implement in a non-server melting way. (I mean, hell, if a bunch of drunk belorussians can do it for World of Tanks, which has even higher server concurrency than Eve....)

2) Firing Arcs: Sort of tied to LOS. We'll likely never see this, as the level of whining alone from PvPers who now have to 'manuver' their ships rather than just camp someplace and spam one button is staggering.

5) Ramming: Probably not going to happen. Much as I'd like it. Doing damage to both ships based on mass and relative velocities seems like a good idea, and bumping games would be brought to a halt via concord, but undocking in Jita would become a nightmare.

Simply unfeasible. The amount of extra calculations would bring Jita to it's knees moments after DT not to mention actual fleet battles...
Comparing it to WoT shows you know nothing of the implications of such a change.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#32 - 2014-05-27 12:31:21 UTC
Xenovenom wrote:
I'm going to throw my two cents in on this one. Firing arcs......we are in space there is no gravity to act on objects. Newton's First law says and object in motion tends to stay in motion until acted upon by ANOTHER force. Without another force to act on ammo that is fired you will not have an arc to compensate for.


Planets, Moon, Asteroids, Gas clouds, dust clouds, Stars... All of them could affect the flight direction.

Xenovenom wrote:

LoS....meh, this sounds good on paper but it has no place in eve itself. Also, small ships already have ways to avoid big ships using sigradius, transversal, quick align time, making distance quickly. Eve isn't about getting away ALL the time without a scratch, its about destroying ships and objects.

In fact Eve had LoS in the days before I started playing. A Veteran can explain you why CCP took it out of the game.

Xenovenom wrote:

Crew....Celthric is right, capsuleer pilots control their entire ship we have no crew that is part of what makes capsuleers gods, aside from being able to live after death, read the lore its all in there.

All EvE ships have crew. A Frigate has none, but bigger ships has at least 2 people maintaining the ship.
http://www.evereader.org/eve_reader_episode_0.mp3
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#33 - 2014-05-27 15:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Iq Cadaen wrote:

Comparing it to WoT shows you know nothing of the implications of such a change.


The comparison was for purposes of ballistics calculations. WoT actually runs a lot more simultaneous ballistic calculations on their servers than Eve would on a good day, and more detailed ones at that. So server load is doable.

Let me give you a worst case scenario: a 3k player fight in an asteroid belt. You're looking at *maybe* 10k possible collision calculations, without having to check for, say, armor penetration or angle of shot or interior damage to the ship's subsystems. All it has to check for on a hit is how resistant the target is to that type of damage.

Now, fire a T7's heavy machinegun into the sort of crowded fights that spring up around cover on the hill and tank alley in Himmlesdorf. Remember that it fires several rounds in a burst, as opposed to the single round you get in eve. All those rounds do hit something, even the ones that technically pass outside the 500 yard limit. Each round that hits calculates angle of impact, penetration value, what's behind that point in the tank (if it hits one), splash damage, and the weight and velocity of the shell. Then it takes base damage and rolls a random amount.

Or are you talking about the implications that such a change would make on how people PvP/E? Do I take the shot now and risk hitting that cruiser, or do I hold fire and hope for a clear shot? That sort of thing?
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#34 - 2014-05-27 15:14:16 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Let me give you a worst case scenario: a 3k player fight in an asteroid belt. You're looking at *maybe* 10k possible collision calculations,

Yes, in most battles everyone takes 3 shots and kindly logs off without dropping drones at any point.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#35 - 2014-05-27 15:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
HiddenPorpoise wrote:

Yes, in most battles everyone takes 3 shots and kindly logs off without dropping drones at any point.


Nice try at trolling, but that's each and every shot having 10,000 possible calculations. If you look at that same trigger pull on that hypothetical T7, you're looking at a little north of 1.5 million, depending on where in Himmelsdorf you're pulling the trigger, and how many people are packed into the probability cone from that shot (and how wide that probability cone is, because it gets pretty damn wide if you just spray and pray), because it isn't just calculating if the target was hit, but every single part of every single target. In EvE hits are a yes/no proposition, with damage negated by resistance to that damage type. All this adds is a check first to see if anything is between the firing ship and it's target and how far away it is. If there is something, the closest thing gets hit.
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