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If CCP wants more money then why don't they offer more services?
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-05-23 17:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Excellent posts on why plex for pure sp is an issue. What about 1 plex for a cerebral accelerator usable on any character?

(Please note, I'm not advocating this, I'm just curious what people opinions are.)

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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RebelArch Geten
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2014-05-23 18:08:11 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
I am sure if they added pay to win like a SP boost they would be haemorrhaging money within a month and go bankrupt three months later.

Pay for vanity, alright, knock yourself out and have fun with it.


The game already is pay to win. The longer you've been subbing, ie. paying, the more SP you have. Achievement doesn't advance your character, time does, and time is paid for.

I really like the skill system it's uniqueness is one of the things that attracted me to the game, but it is very much a pay to win system and could use some tweaking to reward effort and good play. I think you should earn a higher rate of SP while logged in and active.
Captain Finklestein
Doomheim
#143 - 2014-05-23 18:21:08 UTC
I've read the thread and I think both sides have brought up reasonable points.

Paying 2 PLEX to have an additional X amount of SP for Y amount of time is less pay-to-win than converting RL money into PLEX, selling it, and buying a character that permanently gives you 150mil SP.

With that said, creation of extra skill points out of mid-air causes a game balance issue. As such any ability to buy skillpoints must be completely temporary and should deplete if the character is transferred to a different account.

Still, there's quite a difference between paying a measly 2 PLEX for a reasonable buff in SP versus coughing up tens of billions of ISK for an entirely new character.

I do not support or lack support of the idea. I do however believe many posters - especially the attention-seeking trolls on page 1 - need to be more open-minded and keep their opinions to themselves sometimes.

It's just more financially viable for me.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#144 - 2014-05-23 19:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
What the OP is asking for is pay-to-win, PLEX and character bazaar aren't.


If PLEX and the character bazaar aren't pay-for-advantage, then what is the paying for? Are you saying they are pay-to-lose? Pay-for-nothing? What is the point of paying money for ISK or a higher SP or more specialized character if that does not yield advantage

You paid for somebody else's sub, they gave you some ISK pennies in return.

No ISK or other game asset was created out of thin air. And the PLEX buyer freely decided how much ISK to give you.

For example, I pay cash for my 3 accounts because making nice amounts of ISK to spend on PVP is an enjoyable mini-game for me. If it were for me, I wouldn't pay more than 100 Mil ISK or so per PLEX.

PLEX economy is certainly more complex than you trying to sell PLEX to me, but at the end of the day it all boils down to player-to-player interaction. PVP in a sense. Which is great and doesn't break the game in any way.


Except nowhere was it suggested that CCP sell some sort of "100 million SP bundle" Just an increase to the rate you gain it. A rate that equals the amount of SP added to Eve with the consumption of a plex anyway.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
You're making a very common noob mistake: discussing multiplayer game design from the perspective of a single individual player.

How easy it is for a single Mr. Richguy to get 100Bil ISK or a 100Mil SP toon is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is where that ISK or SP comes from.

Currently, it comes from other players (yes, a MMO typically has several people playing it) that have acquired it through regular game mechanics and have freely decided to trade it..


SP comes from plexes. Each plex an account consumes generates about 1.6 million SP to one character over the course of a month. You can get this in the form of three characters generating 1.6 million SP each or you can spend 10 plexes per month on 10 accounts who each have a character generating a total of 16 million sp per month.

This is obviously not game breaking so how is one character consuming two plexes to generate 3.2 million SP per month game breaking?

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
As Andski pointed out in the above post, try to acquire 100 titan pilots in a month on the character bazaar. Pretty hard, isn't it?


I did a search and found 11 Titan pilots for sale in the past week. So that averages 44 Titan pilots on a monthly basis.

If you put out some WTB orders. Offered an above average price then you could probably buy yourself 100 titan pilots in a month if you wanted.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2014-05-23 20:13:11 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I did a search and found 11 Titan pilots for sale in the past week. So that averages 44 Titan pilots on a monthly basis.

If you put out some WTB orders. Offered an above average price then you could probably buy yourself 100 titan pilots in a month if you wanted.

Then please explain why this thread exists. You have a path from PLEX to being in possession of a lot of skillpoints. Since you already have this path, why advocate a different path where SPs are actually injected out of nothing into the system? You also haven't spent any time to consider what the spontaneous generation of SP might do to EVE (even though several points have been made by others to point out why this is a game breaking idea).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#146 - 2014-05-23 20:20:04 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
Except nowhere was it suggested that CCP sell some sort of "100 million SP bundle" Just an increase to the rate you gain it. A rate that equals the amount of SP added to Eve with the consumption of a plex anyway.
…so spend that PLEX on a second character and accumulate the SP. Increasing the rate you learn — i.e. skipping over the regular game mechanics and altering the rate at which SP is accumulated — is a very bad idea.

Quote:
SP comes from plexes.
No. SP come from training skills at a rate determined by your attributes. PLEX is not a factor (for good reason).
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#147 - 2014-05-23 20:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Sibyyl wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I did a search and found 11 Titan pilots for sale in the past week. So that averages 44 Titan pilots on a monthly basis.

If you put out some WTB orders. Offered an above average price then you could probably buy yourself 100 titan pilots in a month if you wanted.

Then please explain why this thread exists. You have a path from PLEX to being in possession of a lot of skillpoints. Since you already have this path, why advocate a different path where SPs are actually injected out of nothing into the system? You also haven't spent any time to consider what the spontaneous generation of SP might do to EVE (even though several points have been made by others to point out why this is a game breaking idea).


Because having the option to accumulate the SP on a single character would be dandy. Instead of training a separate alt at the same time to "Bypass" the current limitation.

Tippia wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
Except nowhere was it suggested that CCP sell some sort of "100 million SP bundle" Just an increase to the rate you gain it. A rate that equals the amount of SP added to Eve with the consumption of a plex anyway.
…so spend that PLEX on a second character and accumulate the SP. Increasing the rate you learn — i.e. skipping over the regular game mechanics and altering the rate at which SP is accumulated — is a very bad idea.

Quote:
SP comes from plexes.
No. SP come from training skills at a rate determined by your attributes. PLEX is not a factor (for good reason).



You can have all the attributes in the world but unless you fed the character its monthly plex then the character won't be learning anything. That goes for single characters on an account and to alts on accounts with multi training.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Marsha Mallow
#148 - 2014-05-23 20:31:13 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
This is obviously not game breaking so how is one character consuming two plexes to generate 3.2 million SP per month game breaking?

Massive SP gain increases undermines the investment others have put in. Also creates an enormous gap between wealth (IG & IRL) and the poor/casual. It doesn't reward player loyalty, and it'd probably knock people out of the game who are just largely playing to skill.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#149 - 2014-05-23 20:32:34 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
This is obviously not game breaking so how is one character consuming two plexes to generate 3.2 million SP per month game breaking?

Massive SP gain increases undermines the investment others have put in. Also creates an enormous gap between wealth (IG & IRL) and the poor/casual. It doesn't reward player loyalty, and it'd probably knock people out of the game who are just largely playing to skill.


All that is already there and Eve seems to be doing just fine.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Steve Celeste
Doomheim
#150 - 2014-05-23 20:37:05 UTC
They could test the waters by offerong some way to unlearn skills and convert them into free SP at some crappy efficiency like 25%. It would cost PLEX to do this ofcourse. I'm sure thats only been posted like a hundred times in the suggestions forum.

Then eveluate (check if the Jita monument isnt being shot) and work from there.

But letting people spam PLEX on their low SP character to get it to 100m asap? No ty.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#151 - 2014-05-23 20:40:53 UTC
Steve Celeste wrote:
But letting people spam PLEX on their low SP character to get it to 100m asap? No ty.


No one ever suggested that.

What was suggested was a 100% boost to SP gain at a cost of 1 plex per month.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Marsha Mallow
#152 - 2014-05-23 20:47:04 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
All that is already there and Eve seems to be doing just fine.

Then write up a proposal, stick it in F&I and wait for implementation.

Funnily enough the Devs did mention SP boosts/remaps for Aur to the CSM at some point (I'm really not sure how serious that conversation was). It's somewhere in the minutes for last summer (?) I think, or 2012. The CSM very politely explained the objections, Devs seemed all innocently bewildered, blinked owlishly then surprisingly didn't implement.

Having said that I'd like to see a serious proposal. Love a good riot P

You're just going to have to accept there are very strong views on this. You are welcome to your own, and you can keep going round in circles, but until you get some support from CCP it's not going to happen.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-05-23 20:51:12 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
Steve Celeste wrote:
But letting people spam PLEX on their low SP character to get it to 100m asap? No ty.


No one ever suggested that.

What was suggested was a 100% boost to SP gain at a cost of 1 plex per month.


Make it so it doesn't stack with itself, and I think it would be a great idea.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#154 - 2014-05-23 21:08:14 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
Steve Celeste wrote:
But letting people spam PLEX on their low SP character to get it to 100m asap? No ty.


No one ever suggested that.

What was suggested was a 100% boost to SP gain at a cost of 1 plex per month.


Make it so it doesn't stack with itself, and I think it would be a great idea.



Using 10 plexes for +1000% SP or 100 plexes for +10000% (about 250000 sp an hour) might be a bit of an extreme suggestion so I'm going stick with one boost active per character at any given time as my suggestion.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#155 - 2014-05-23 21:27:55 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Massive SP gain increases undermines the investment others have put in.


Well, that happens pretty regularly without help from new features like SP gain. Tracking titans come to mind.

Bacon makes us stronger
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2014-05-23 21:38:01 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
SP comes from plexes. Each plex an account consumes generates about 1.6 million SP to one character over the course of a month. You can get this in the form of three characters generating 1.6 million SP each or you can spend 10 plexes per month on 10 accounts who each have a character generating a total of 16 million sp per month.

This is obviously not game breaking so how is one character consuming two plexes to generate 3.2 million SP per month game breaking?

If you're practicing your argumentation skills, fine: they're not bad, tbh.

If you actually believe what you're posting, you need to review your math skills.


Currently, for each toon:

1 PLEX + 1 month of real time = 1.6 Mil SP

2 PLEX + 2 months of real time = 3.2 Mil SP


What you're suggesting, for any toon, is:

2 PLEX + 1 month of real time + thin air = 3.2 Mil SP


You're essentially suggesting to create 1 month of real time out of thin air. Yup, game breaking.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#157 - 2014-05-23 21:45:34 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
You're essentially suggesting to create 1 month of real time out of thin air. Yup, game breaking.


Angelique's math seems solid to me. It's your math that's giving me a headache. If it wasn't already possible to train X number of characters in parallel using PLEX, then you might have a leg to stand on.

Also, game breaking changes are frankly what this 11-year old game needs.

Bacon makes us stronger
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2014-05-23 22:03:09 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Angelique's math seems solid to me. It's your math that's giving me a headache. If it wasn't already possible to train X number of characters in parallel using PLEX, then you might have a leg to stand on.

Also, game breaking changes are frankly what this 11-year old game needs.

Except that it's not possible to re-allocate SP among toons. That would be game breaking, too.

Sure, breaking games can be great fun, for a while.

Like when we were little children and enjoyed smashing toys from time to time. But then we realized they were gone forever, and we missed them.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#159 - 2014-05-23 22:06:24 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Like when we were little children and enjoyed smashing toys from time to time. But then we realized they were gone forever, and we missed them.


Big smile

Bacon makes us stronger
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#160 - 2014-05-23 22:16:27 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
SP comes from plexes. Each plex an account consumes generates about 1.6 million SP to one character over the course of a month. You can get this in the form of three characters generating 1.6 million SP each or you can spend 10 plexes per month on 10 accounts who each have a character generating a total of 16 million sp per month.

This is obviously not game breaking so how is one character consuming two plexes to generate 3.2 million SP per month game breaking?

If you're practicing your argumentation skills, fine: they're not bad, tbh.

If you actually believe what you're posting, you need to review your math skills.


Currently, for each toon:

1 PLEX + 1 month of real time = 1.6 Mil SP

2 PLEX + 2 months of real time = 3.2 Mil SP


What you're suggesting, for any toon, is:

2 PLEX + 1 month of real time + thin air = 3.2 Mil SP


You're essentially suggesting to create 1 month of real time out of thin air. Yup, game breaking.


So a character with 40 million SP in 12 months will break eve.

But ten characters with 40 million SP in 24 months will not break eve?

What if I just started training those last year. Then they would have 40 million SP this year. Does that break Eve?

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.