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Gate Missiles instead of Gate Guns

First post
Author
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#21 - 2014-05-16 15:41:24 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:


I'm just saying it's dumb to have 1 and only 1 type of ship class that can't fight on gate in low-sec unless everyone you're fighting is -5 (which doesnt happen in fw space)


You're flying the wrong frigates and you need to make some friends.

We have absolutely no problem fighting neutrals on gates in AFs with a couple T1 logi frigs backing us. Sentries simply don't do so much damage that certain frigs can't overcome it.

If you want to attack neutrals on gates, you need to adjust your tactics, exactly as the campers have.
Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-05-16 16:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vadeim Rizen
'More logi' is boring and bringing 2 logi frigs to a 5-6 man gang just to be able to fight on gate is boring. With the current way flagging is set up where you can "tag" a player, warp off and come back, all i'm asking is for a little bit more time... perhaps enough time to tag 4-5 ships before warping off and coming back.

This thread is beginning to just depress me. I bring up something where frigs have become the most popular ship in eve, that would give frigs the same treatment on gates as any other ship, and all anyone is posting is 'but the gate campers' and 'bring more logi'.... it's a pretty sad state that eve is in to be honest.

Everything I've heard so far only backs up my point that this would NOT change gate camping, as gate campers sit there in shiny ships because they are shiney and wont take a fight that's not a gank. Could they sit there in assault frigs and gate camp? Yes, but they don't because they aren't 'sexy' enough. I DONT CARE ABOUT GATE CAMPERS, i'm talking about the rest of the low-sec population who actually enjoys PVP. As it is, in a non-fw alliance with no war-targets, the only things interceptors in a gang WITHOUT LOGI can do on gate is get a ninja point and immediately warp. Where as any other ship it doesnt mattter. Which if fighting in a small gang, can leave you with 2-3 guys on gate trying to fight simply because you're fighting a gang that's not -5.

The reason i brought up missiles instead of guns is NOT so that inties can speed tank missiles. The missiles would hit 100% of the time just like other missiles, but would do less dps simply due to sig radius. And it presents a BALANCED threat/punishment for aggroing within gate gun range.


EDIT: Along with it, I also think gates need to hit bs/caps even harder, but that's a different argument for a different day
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-05-16 16:50:21 UTC
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Low sec really should feel more accessible. Maybe buff gate guns more so more people go.

It's easy to get into lowsec, but hard to go anywhere but the station. If you want more people in lowsec, offer security somewhere where they can farm some sort of resource.

I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-05-16 17:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets.


Now theres a worthwhile change. (Perhaps g8ve pocos slots just like a ship so you could fit them out with guns or maybe even ewar to defend itself or even players accessing it)


Back on topic though
To the OP
Imo i dont mind frigs being able to speedtank gate weaponry. But there needs to be a point at which the guns are actually a threat to them. Primarily in my thoughts. How about you nerf the gun tracking a bit. But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you.
This would accomplish the same thing as the missiles however with less server load. Also noobs can have a slight bit of solace in the fact that they can work with the gate guns to fight off players.

Also my initial suggestion included buffing hilo guns and weakening them as you travel deeper into lowsec. With thr changes it would be perfectly easy to camp a 2nd or 3rd layer gate with a frigate gang.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-05-16 17:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think the damage threat should be more balanced than it is. Not balanced completely, mind you. Frigates should die faster than cruisers, and so on. But frigates shouldn't just be instantly killed at the gate. And battleships should take more damage.

I had the idea a while back to make the 8 gate guns into 4 different types of turret:
1.) Two small turrets with fast tracking that can hit anything, but deals low enough damage that a well-tanked frigate can permatank it.
2.) Two medium turrets that can easily hit cruisers but frigates can evade it if they keep up a good angular velocity to both--though it's still a high risk to them and if it does hit them straight on, they won't survive long without logi no matter how well they are tanked. These two turrets alone would hit cruisers similarly--a well-tanked cruiser could permatank them.
3.) Two large turrets that cruisers can evade if they keep up high angular velocity but will hit battleships pretty hard. Only very expensive tanky battleship fits can permatank it without logi support.
4.) Two XL turrets that hit capital ships easily and battleships have to work to evade them. They have much higher DPS than current gate guns and no battleship wants to be hit by these.

The guns would have a preference for targets they can hit well but will also try to focus multiple turrets of multiple sizes on one target when it presents itself. They will split up some also just to keep the logi guessing.



So this way, a ship that is focusing its movement on evading the guns will not be getting hit too hard, but that makes it difficult for said ship to be using short-range weapons and modules. And any ship just sitting still is going to die pretty quickly. Aside from offering more gate defense, it gives more power to the player in choosing to protect themselves from the guns vs attacking players full-force.

Linkxsc162534 wrote:
But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you.
In my system, if a solo player ganks on a gate and the victim retaliates by webbing the ganker, that ganker may be in for a world of hurt.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-05-16 17:06:35 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


I bet there would be more people in lowsec if customs offices had turrets.


Now theres a worthwhile change. (Perhaps g8ve pocos slots just like a ship so you could fit them out with guns or maybe even ewar to defend itself or even players accessing it)


Back on topic though
To the OP
Imo i dont mind frigs being able to speedtank gate weaponry. But there needs to be a point at which the guns are actually a threat to them. Primarily in my thoughts. How about you nerf the gun tracking a bit. But put it in a manner so if your going gcc and you get scrammed and webbed the guns will probably get you.
This would accomplish the same thing as the missiles however with less server load. Also noobs can have a slight bit of solace in the fact that they can work with the gate guns to fight off players



being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same.
Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-05-16 17:10:41 UTC
Quote:


being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same.


And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you?
Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-05-16 17:16:33 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Quote:


being able to speed tank them would be a bad thing. the point is to hit them not as hard, not not at all. Think of it as a Tengu shooting HML's. You're still going to hit cruisers/bc's for ~550 dps, but frigs ~ 180 dps. so it essentially takes just as long to kill a frig as it does a cruiser/bc. That's all i'm going for here is something where the time it takes the gates to kill a criminal is roughly the same.


And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you?



Of course, and of course. :) Atleast the player is doing something to fight back at that point. Webs/paints do increase missile dps.
Linkxsc162534
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-05-16 17:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
linkxsc162534 wrote:


And what happens if i use a target painter on your frig? Will you take more damage from these missiles then? What about if i web you?



Of course, and of course. :) Atleast the player is doing something to fight back at that point. Webs/paints do increase missile dps.


Then make that apparent in the first post please. We all know many forum-warriors dont read between the lines on a lot of topics.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-16 17:21:40 UTC
I like anything that gives a victim a way to fight back. Would be interesting to see how many people fit a bait industrial with an armor tank and webs/painters just to screw with the gankers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-16 17:23:33 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
Quick and short of it: Make it so gates dont hit frigs as hard as they do cruisers. Something like HML sized so frigs can survive just a bit longer.
Howabout capital-sized missiles with a low damage reduction factor, so they hit all sizes equally well in proportion to their typical hit points for that size? Capital precision missiles.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
SONS of BANE
#32 - 2014-05-16 17:27:27 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
This is intentional to keep tacklers away from gates so low-sec is a bit more accessible.


Too bad it doesn't work. At all.


You have to pick your gates right. Blink

Maybe add HML guns in addition to the current guns. Bear

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#33 - 2014-05-16 17:46:04 UTC
heard of lag much?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2014-05-16 18:07:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
heard of lag much?

hey dont camp there if you dont like the lag
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#35 - 2014-05-23 01:48:07 UTC
I like gateguns where they are at. It is part of what makes low sec as it is. With the changes that came in to crime watch with Retribution and the limited engagement timer a frigate can bounce off and come back without further aggression. I feel that gateguns make pilots make decisions and those decisions dictate a lot of the action and reaction of low sec.

I'm against homogenization. Yes, gateguns are unfriendly to frigates. Yes, gateguns make engagements harder. Yes, gateguns favor the non outlaw pilot and cause people to play gategames. Yes it means that frigates and interceptors cannot stay in a fight and may die to take that point.

Good.

There are areas in the game without gateguns. Irritating as can be they are one of the things that define low sec.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Captain Finklestein
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-05-23 02:02:07 UTC
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Low sec really should feel more accessible. Maybe buff gate guns more so more people go.

Won't make a difference when a gang of interceptors warps into your deadspace site.

They need to adjust the rewards so getting killed is common enough still, but outweighed by the profits.

It's just more financially viable for me.

DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#37 - 2014-05-23 02:14:48 UTC
Lowsec gate guns are quite fine as they are. Yes, a frigate will die, but it can also bounce, and unless completely fit like crap should be able to take a hit or two while warping out. Guns only hit one target at a time, so multiple frigs can actually do some decent damage. Quite often I'll sit on a gate in an untanked alpha thrasher, even that takes 4 gate gun hits to die, and that's more than enough time to warp out once the first hit lands and I know it's time to GTFO. My malediction takes at least 3 hits as well before going poof.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#38 - 2014-05-23 05:42:09 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
With the changes that came in to crime watch with Retribution and the limited engagement timer a frigate can bounce off and come back without further aggression.


You should be careful attempting to explain sound tactics to OP. Apparently they are more boring than having CCP 'fix' sentry guns.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#39 - 2014-05-23 06:09:28 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:


I mean why do you sit on hilow gates waiting for people?


Because "LEET" PVPers love getting kills on solo ritfers and caracals from some nub, or even jsut a regular carebear wanting to try out lowsec.

Honestly, buffing the hilow guns, and then weakening them/removing them the farther you get into low would actually be pretty nice. It would at least give players a minor thought that there isn't a 20man camp sitting on the gate waiting, cause the guns right now are basically worthless.

Few players get into lowsec, and fly around for a bit without getting mercced the second they jump in. The more comfortable they might get with the idea. Then more people go into low.


Or, make Gate Turrets from (0.4 to 0.1) from strong to weak. You can camp 0.4 but you need some good logistics or just camp 0.2-1 or in 00.
Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-05-23 13:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vadeim Rizen
Domanique Altares wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
With the changes that came in to crime watch with Retribution and the limited engagement timer a frigate can bounce off and come back without further aggression.


You should be careful attempting to explain sound tactics to OP. Apparently they are more boring than having CCP 'fix' sentry guns.


Right, because I've never heard of doing that before. In a gang engagement though it's worthless to have an interceptor 'tag' 1 target, then have to warp off and come back. It's a great tactic for ganking something, but in a situation where it's 5 v 10, and you cant have your interceptor on field because it keeps having to warp off and come back just to be able to engage, it makes it a pretty dull engagement. If you'd have taken the time to read previous posts, I already addressed this as far as my opinion. The limited engagement timer would be even more valuable if the interceptor pilot would have enough time to tag say 4 or 5 of the targets before having to warp off and come back.


EDIT: And as far as gate guns making low-sec low-sec, I disagree. I love null-sec mechanics but low-sec would still be a way better. Low-sec you don't have to travel 25 jumps to the nearest whatever power bloc home system to find a fight, and still no bubble camping. You still would have consequences for engaging neutrals on gate/station, you'd still have targets in a lot more systems, and you wouldn't have to deal with the null power blocs. Changing gate mechanics slightly wouldn't change any of that.
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