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Can we please get rid of off grid boosting?

First post
Author
ViRtUoZone
Spitfire Syndicate
#1 - 2014-05-22 14:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Virtuozone
The title says it all. At the moment ECM combined with off grid boosting makes solo work impossible. No one can effectively fly solo or in small gang kiting ships when every single ship on grid can scram you from 16+km away. You don't have to get rid of it, but force boosting ships to be on grid so that fleeting and solo pilots are aware of the effects.
Damen Apol
326BD Industries
#2 - 2014-05-22 14:39:15 UTC
Moving links on grids means that you keep links, except now links are only used by blobs of 30+ people who can easily afford to defend their links, way to kill the functionality of links for a 3 man squad.

Terrible terrible idea with 0 thought put into it.
Bohneik Itohn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-05-22 14:41:31 UTC
ViRtUoZone wrote:
The title says it all. At the moment ECM combined with off grid boosting makes solo work impossible. No one can't effectively fly solo or in small gang kiting ships when every single ship on grid can scram you from 16+km away. You don't have to get rid of it, but force boosting ships to be on grid so that fleeting and solo pilots are aware of the effects.



Off-grid boosting is bad but it won't get changed for technical reasons. The way warfare links work is a rats nest in the code and CCP can't change it without changing some other major mechanics. Lots of work required, and it's a low priority issue compared to things like content and industry rebalance, fixing low and null sec, etc...

Oh, and I just felt the need to highlight the key words in your statement so that everyone could understand you're asking to a very broad change to a very specific problem you as an individual want addressed.

But still, Off-grid boosting is a known problem. A quick search would've returned hundreds of results.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-05-22 18:34:07 UTC
My only addition to this is IF on-grid boosting is ever enforced for warfare links, it must selfsame be equally applied to carebear mining links.

Today for example an Orca can sit safely behind POS shield and provide mining link boosts not only off-grid but in complete safety behind POS shield....this is not justice, this is blatant carebear love & pansification. I reject the tongue-bathing carebears are already getting compared to warfare links, that do not extend today beyond POS shield in contrast...

Don't do it CCP, don't force warfare links on-grid and still allow the carebears to have off-grid or behind-pos-shield mining links. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That is all.

F

Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-05-22 18:46:30 UTC
MMO = Massively Multiplayer. Can't worry about only solo players.

Pick your fights.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2014-05-22 18:52:06 UTC

Since Off grid links are sooooo difficult to "remove", can we please get a deployable that disables all warfare links in a system?

Make it a warpable beacon blatantly apparent on everyone's overview!!!
Keep it low HP, so a single cruiser can kill it in a minute or two.
Make engaging it give you a suspect flag, so it can be defended without sec status repercussions.
Allow it to be deployed in Highsec, especially in incursion systems. Twisted
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-05-22 19:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Damen Apol wrote:
Moving links on grids means that you keep links, except now links are only used by blobs of 30+ people who can easily afford to defend their links, way to kill the functionality of links for a 3 man squad.

Terrible terrible idea with 0 thought put into it.
My sig begs to differ.

I'm not saying it won't only be used in big fleets, just that small fleets totally CAN use them if they choose to.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Since Off grid links are sooooo difficult to "remove", can we please get a deployable that disables all warfare links in a system?

Make it a warpable beacon blatantly apparent on everyone's overview!!!
Keep it low HP, so a single cruiser can kill it in a minute or two.
Make engaging it give you a suspect flag, so it can be defended without sec status repercussions.
Allow it to be deployed in Highsec, especially in incursion systems. Twisted
Could give new players more room to join in on the fun. The larger incursion fleets might pay them to blob up in a big roaming noobgang and blast those to bits every time they pop up.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-05-22 19:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
On-grid links would maybe be better gameplay. Hard to be 100% sure about it given the diversity of EVE combat.

But if you think about it, it doesn't really make a big difference: it's all about the metagame.

The guy that likes a challenge uses links to engage superior ships. T1 frig vs. Assault Frig, for example. If links didn't exist, he'd fly T1 vs. Faction Frig and continue giving excellent fights.

OTOH, the guy that prefers risk-free engagements would just trade his t3 booster for a cloaky falcon alt, and continue giving not-so-good fights.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

X ATM092
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-05-22 20:07:45 UTC
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2014-05-22 20:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.
Damen Apol
326BD Industries
#11 - 2014-05-22 20:26:57 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


Excellent point, links are currently friendly for EVERY pilot, you hit the nail on the head.

Bring them on grid and they become for blobs only, much like logi currently is.
Vadeim Rizen
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-05-22 20:29:49 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


you're completely false and unfounded.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2014-05-22 20:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Damen Apol wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


Excellent point, links are currently friendly for EVERY pilot who has access to them, you hit the nail on the head.

Bring them on grid and they become for blobs only, much like logi currently is.


FYP

*edit*
Logi is beneficial to anyone that utilizes them. They are not blob only tools.
Furthermore, one of the larger issue with links is that they are very much not accessible to many players, and the dichotomy in ship performance between the haves and have nots is mostly game breaking.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#14 - 2014-05-22 20:37:51 UTC
I remember idea floating around some time ago about fleet boosts being transformed from off-grid source of magic into bubbles that command ships or other links capable ship would deploy on grid and every fleet member in range of such bubble(s) would receive respective bonus.

Idea died quickly because some dev explained to us that there would be huge technical problem for server to keep up with all ships moving in and out of bubbles and change their stats accordingly.

Somebody tried to argue that boosting bubbles would be just like warp bubbles but that dev said warp bubbles are coming to effect only when you try to warp out so there is a distinct moment when server get "engage warp engine" and it checks if ship is in range of warp bubble. With fleet boosts that checking would have to be done continuously and at this moment they don't feel competent to solve this problem without basically breaking everything.

Before somebody will ask for link I have no idea where and when it was discussed nor I have energy to search for it :)

Invalid signature format

Damen Apol
326BD Industries
#15 - 2014-05-22 20:56:01 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


Excellent point, links are currently friendly for EVERY pilot who has access to them, you hit the nail on the head.

Bring them on grid and they become for blobs only, much like logi currently is.


FYP

*edit*
Logi is beneficial to anyone that utilizes them. They are not blob only tools.
Furthermore, one of the larger issue with links is that they are very much not accessible to many players, and the dichotomy in ship performance between the haves and have nots is mostly game breaking.


Hey you know what else most people don't have access to? deadspace mods, boy are they OP, better nerf them too. Oh what's that, you can lose them? You can lose links too, probe them down. What's that? Links are TOO powerful compared to deadspace mods and such? Where are you arbitrarily drawing this power line.

Logi IS a blob only tool, I fly with around three people, and using logi would be absolutely stupid for us to do, and if you can't figure out why you really have no place in these discussions.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#16 - 2014-05-22 21:21:08 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:


Logi IS a blob only tool, I fly with around three people, and using logi would be absolutely stupid for us to do, and if you can't figure out why you really have no place in these discussions.


I didn't know 5 people was a blob, because a fleet of 3 mallers and 2 augorors can kick some serious ass assuming they dont get hit with a lot of ewar and/or they're all idiots.

Throw in a prophecy that can tank even harder than the mallers and you have a potential brick of a tank that uses hardly any cap cause it's buffer tanked, uses drones, and could utilize projectiles and missiles in the highs.

And many seem to forget this but all the combat BCs (as opposed to the attack BCs that use large guns) can fit gang links. The links have no bonuses but they can be fit.


And btw the reason why a gang links is so much more OP than deadspace mods is because it's a power multiplier no matter what you fit. T1, T2, Faction, Deadspace, Officer, they all get a gain from gang links and all the ships supported by the gang link get buffed, not just one ship that has it fitted.

Now tanking bonuses, I cant say much for because a ship might have used slaves or have deadspace mods fitted instead of going implant-less with T2s and the guy with slaves and shiny fit would prob have more EHP than a T2 fit with gang links...

But Skirmish links on the other hand are VERY unique in how they work. Besides these links there's no point range extension modules or sig radius reduction modules or afterburner/MWD boosting modules (overdrive doesnt count, it affects the ship not the module).

So really it's just skirmish links that are OP, hah

The Drake is a Lie

Damen Apol
326BD Industries
#17 - 2014-05-22 21:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Damen Apol
Xercodo wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:


Logi IS a blob only tool, I fly with around three people, and using logi would be absolutely stupid for us to do, and if you can't figure out why you really have no place in these discussions.


I didn't know 5 people was a blob, because a fleet of 3 mallers and 2 augorors can kick some serious ass assuming they dont get hit with a lot of ewar and/or they're all idiots.

Throw in a prophecy that can tank even harder than the mallers and you have a potential brick of a tank that uses hardly any cap cause it's buffer tanked, uses drones, and could utilize projectiles and missiles in the highs.

And many seem to forget this but all the combat BCs (as opposed to the attack BCs that use large guns) can fit gang links. The links have no bonuses but they can be fit.


And btw the reason why a gang links is so much more OP than deadspace mods is because it's a power multiplier no matter what you fit. T1, T2, Faction, Deadspace, Officer, they all get a gain from gang links and all the ships supported by the gang link get buffed, not just one ship that has it fitted.

Now tanking bonuses, I cant say much for because a ship might have used slaves or have deadspace mods fitted instead of going implant-less with T2s and the guy with slaves and shiny fit would prob have more EHP than a T2 fit with gang links...

But Skirmish links on the other hand are VERY unique in how they work. Besides these links there's no point range extension modules or sig radius reduction modules or afterburner/MWD boosting modules (overdrive doesnt count, it affects the ship not the module).

So really it's just skirmish links that are OP, hah


That 5 man fleet will be eaten alive by any cruiser gang floating about. Why? Because they'll have more logi and more alpha/dps. N+1 is what you're engaging in when you bring logi on field.

Flying BCs small gang is almost always suicide with few exceptions.

So you're arguing power multipliers are OP? Guess that covers logi, frankly I'd be fine with removing links entirely as opposed to putting them on grid, if we can reduce the effictiveness of logi at the same time that'd be awesome.

You can get point range extension as a ship bonus, you can also get AB/MWD speeds boosted via implants.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2014-05-22 21:35:27 UTC
Damen Apol wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Damen Apol wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Strongly disagree. Links are currently the smallgang/solo friend, on grid links favour large gangs who can sacrifice the utility of one pilot for linking duty whereas off grid allow you to have them without losing utility. I think what this comes down to is you wanting links, or not wanting people to use them against you. This change would absolutely ruin solo against larger gangs.


How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


Excellent point, links are currently friendly for EVERY pilot who has access to them, you hit the nail on the head.

Bring them on grid and they become for blobs only, much like logi currently is.


FYP

*edit*
Logi is beneficial to anyone that utilizes them. They are not blob only tools.
Furthermore, one of the larger issue with links is that they are very much not accessible to many players, and the dichotomy in ship performance between the haves and have nots is mostly game breaking.


Hey you know what else most people don't have access to? deadspace mods, boy are they OP, better nerf them too. Oh what's that, you can lose them? You can lose links too, probe them down. What's that? Links are TOO powerful compared to deadspace mods and such? Where are you arbitrarily drawing this power line.

Logi IS a blob only tool, I fly with around three people, and using logi would be absolutely stupid for us to do, and if you can't figure out why you really have no place in these discussions.


Deadspace modules are less powerful than links. Furthermore, they only effect ONE SHIP. Furthermore, they are in more danger than your off grid link alt that needs to be probed down to be destroyed.

And we aren't discussing some maybe-links-are-little-too-potent situation here. There is no toeing some arbitrary line whose exact position leaves room for discussion. The numbers are BLATANTLY clear: Leaks are really, really ******* powerful compared to any other bonus in this game. This is because they not only provide your ship with significant boosts, but they benefit EVERY SHIP IN YOUR FLEET to them.

Links are more powerful than Pirate Implants sets and Deadspace modules.
They are exposed to less danger than Pirate implant sets and Deadspace modules.
Links are more cost effective than Deadspace modules and Pirate implant sets.

A logi is not a "blob" only tool. Have you ever watched or participated in an AT event? Logistics bring a very tactical component to the fight, just like bringing an EWAR ships does too. You can bring them on 3 man or 4 man gangs (depending on the composition) without it being a blob too. Granted, the result is you often bias the opponents that will engage you. With OGB's, quite often opponents will even overlook the power your not-blatantly-apparent-fleet-mate is bringing to the field.

I understand why you like them, and want to keep them. There is a reason I trained 6 months to utilize them, and I too thoroughly enjoy the feats they enable. However, that doesn't mean they are good for the game. That doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. To any rational onlooker, they are clearly out of balance, and should be dramatically altered.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2014-05-22 21:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Damen Apol wrote:


That 5 man fleet will be eaten alive by any cruiser gang floating about. Why? Because they'll have more logi and more alpha/dps. N+1 is what you're engaging in when you bring logi on field.

Flying BCs small gang is almost always suicide with few exceptions.

So you're arguing power multipliers are OP? Guess that covers logi, frankly I'd be fine with removing links entirely as opposed to putting them on grid, if we can reduce the effictiveness of logi at the same time that'd be awesome.

You can get point range extension as a ship bonus, you can also get AB/MWD speeds boosted via implants.


The 5 man fleet with 2x logi is a great setup, when you are trying to take on an 8-10 man cruiser gang (not setup to counter you), or whatever.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that you are engaging in the N+1 game when you bring logi to the field. This is because they are a force multiplier. Just like when you bring ECM to the field. Just like when you bring LINKS to the field.

Links are every bit as much playing the force multiplier game when you bring them to the field. The biggest difference though, is that they don't actually come ON FIELD, where they can actually be countered. Instead, they provide their N+1 force multiplication boosts from some generally safe location elsewhere in system.
Damen Apol
326BD Industries
#20 - 2014-05-22 22:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Damen Apol
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

How are links the Solo'er's Friend?
Oh.... you mean they are your friend when you are out "Soloing with links". That's like Soloing with a logistics ship to rep you up, except the logistics ship is more vulnerable. I don't understand how anyone can utter such a ridiculous statement?

Links are extremely out of balance with the rest of EvE. I can use a full Snake implant set to get a 25% boost to my ships speed or a Crystal set to get 55% more tanking, but only one of those. In contrast, a with a single link ship I can get 30% more speed, 80% more rep ability, 30% more tackle range, and more... oh, and I can share that with all my fleet mates too.

There is nothing solo or small gang friendly about links, as such a statement is completely False and unfounded. What you should have said, is that links are friend of ANY PILOT that enjoys their benefits, because they are crazy powerful and improve your ships abilities to herculean levels that allow you to pull off amazing feats.


Quote:
Excellent point, links are currently friendly for EVERY pilot who has access to them, you hit the nail on the head.

Bring them on grid and they become for blobs only, much like logi currently is.


Quote:
FYP

*edit*
Logi is beneficial to anyone that utilizes them. They are not blob only tools.
Furthermore, one of the larger issue with links is that they are very much not accessible to many players, and the dichotomy in ship performance between the haves and have nots is mostly game breaking.


Hey you know what else most people don't have access to? deadspace mods, boy are they OP, better nerf them too. Oh what's that, you can lose them? You can lose links too, probe them down. What's that? Links are TOO powerful compared to deadspace mods and such? Where are you arbitrarily drawing this power line.

Logi IS a blob only tool, I fly with around three people, and using logi would be absolutely stupid for us to do, and if you can't figure out why you really have no place in these discussions.[/quote]

Quote:
Deadspace modules are less powerful than links. Furthermore, they only effect ONE SHIP. Furthermore, they are in more danger than your off grid link alt that needs to be probed down to be destroyed.

And we aren't discussing some maybe-links-are-little-too-potent situation here. There is no toeing some arbitrary line whose exact position leaves room for discussion. The numbers are BLATANTLY clear: Leaks are really, really ******* powerful compared to any other bonus in this game. This is because they not only provide your ship with significant boosts, but they benefit EVERY SHIP IN YOUR FLEET to them.

Links are more powerful than Pirate Implants sets and Deadspace modules.
They are exposed to less danger than Pirate implant sets and Deadspace modules.
Links are more cost effective than Deadspace modules and Pirate implant sets.

A logi is not a "blob" only tool. Have you ever watched or participated in an AT event? Logistics bring a very tactical component to the fight, just like bringing an EWAR ships does too. You can bring them on 3 man or 4 man gangs (depending on the composition) without it being a blob too. Granted, the result is you often bias the opponents that will engage you. With OGB's, quite often opponents will even overlook the power your not-blatantly-apparent-fleet-mate is bringing to the field.

I understand why you like them, and want to keep them. There is a reason I trained 6 months to utilize them, and I too thoroughly enjoy the feats they enable. However, that doesn't mean they are good for the game. That doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. To any rational onlooker, they are clearly out of balance, and should be dramatically altered.



I'd say they're in less danger considering they're on a well-tanked ship, as opposed to the paper thin boosting ship. Not to mention how well protected my implants are, being behind a well-tanked ship AND being capable of instantly warping away.

Really all you have to do is probe down the link ship and it is dead, is it easier said than done? Yes, but so is reducing my combat ship's health to 0.

No I don't watch the AT crap because I'm not fond of arena style PvP or I'd be playing WoW. AT is not indicative of anything relevant in the world of EVE PvP.

Quote:
The 5 man fleet with 2x logi is a great setup, when you are trying to take on an 8-10 man cruiser gang (not setup to counter you), or whatever.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that you are engaging in the N+1 game when you bring logi to the field. This is because they are a force multiplier. Just like when you bring ECM to the field. Just like when you bring LINKS to the field.

Links are every bit as much playing the force multiplier game when you bring them to the field. The biggest difference though, is that they don't actually come ON FIELD, where they can actually be countered. Instead, they provide their N+1 force multiplication boosts from some generally safe location elsewhere in system.


N+1 gameplay is what we're trying to avoid here, keeping links off grid helps avoid this. It causes other issues, but bringing them on-grid creates more problems than it solves. Remove links completely before putting them on-grid.
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