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Another word about balance

First post
Author
Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#41 - 2014-05-22 15:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Lohengrin
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Let's be fair - there are two different gameplay models, which are mixed in EVE - PVP and PVE.


This I feel is the core of your problem.

In EvE, there is no separation between PvP and PvE.

None.

Zero.

Once you understand this, you'll understand why suicide ganking is not only perfectly acceptable, but one of the best parts of EvE.


Your problem i think is your misunderstanding of balance. One more time i will repeat myself - Eve is not a pure sanbox, Eve is not a pure PVP game. Pure PVP is all about non-stop killing. Frags, frags,frags, nothing more. Counter-Strike - pure PVP. Quake, Unreal, many others.
EVE has a mixed gameplay model. According to this i'm not able to understand why besides of enormous PVP-areas we still don't have any quiet and safe PVE area?
Who will suffer if we will have one?
Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#42 - 2014-05-22 15:39:29 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
They are equal parts of the gameplay in all areas.


Let's shut the Concord down then. This will make gameplay really equal for all areas.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#43 - 2014-05-22 15:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
U dnt understand what PvP is. and it looks like u dnt know what a sandbox is either.

PvP by definition is competition between players. its not just combat. This is EVE all over.

why should u be able to make money and create items safely and then COMPETE on the market with those items. ur affecting gameplay for everyone by making money.

So because ur interacting with other players, they must be able to interact with u.

edit

This IS counterstrike in space. But rather than respawning with free equipment each time, we have to build each and every piece of equipment. Rather than maps that reset after a fight, its a persistent world where territory won, is territory gained.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#44 - 2014-05-22 15:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Lohengrin
Daichi Yamato wrote:
U dnt understand what PvP is.

PvP by definition is competition between players. its not just combat. This is EVE all over.

why should u be able to make money and create items safely and then COMPETE on the market with those items. ur affecting gameplay for everyone by making money.

So because ur interacting with other players, they must be able to interact with u.


Are you kidding? All significant materials are outside of Empire Space. With imperial materials only you're not able to build even a frigate. Gravity anomalies with their insignificant volume of high ores change nothing.
Living the Empire you're not able to COMPETE with someone who operates in low security locations.
Kaea Astridsson
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#45 - 2014-05-22 15:54:55 UTC
I'd say EvE is more pure PvP than any of the games you mention OP. When you engage someone you never know what trick they might have up their sleves.

And suicide ganking is as viable as tactics come - say I want to disrupt your tradelane. Should I not be able to pay some dastardly pirate to down every industial ship except my own? Or take matters into my own hand and chase you away from MY asteroids?

Get on Comms, or die typing.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#46 - 2014-05-22 15:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
doesnt matter. the materials in high sec and the items u can make and find still allow u to influence the game as a whole. U dnt honestly think u should be able to go to an asteroid belt and steal the ore other ppl want to mine and get away with it do u?

this just isnt the game where u get to play ur own little world. it never will be that game. it should never be that game.

but theres always star citizen. set that PvP slider to zero and go enjoy a game where interaction is not the core game principle.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#47 - 2014-05-22 16:15:31 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
doesnt matter. the materials in high sec and the items u can make and find still allow u to influence the game as a whole. U dnt honestly think u should be able to go to an asteroid belt and steal the ore other ppl want to mine and get away with it do u?

this just isnt the game where u get to play ur own little world. it never will be that game. it should never be that game.

but theres always star citizen. set that PvP slider to zero and go enjoy a game where interaction is not the core game principle.


I'm not looking for anything else. And unfortunately, i like to be a man of my word. There will be non-CCP EVE. Free, opensource and clean.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#48 - 2014-05-22 16:16:38 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Let's be fair - there are two different gameplay models, which are mixed in EVE - PVP and PVE.


This I feel is the core of your problem.

In EvE, there is no separation between PvP and PvE.

None.

Zero.

Once you understand this, you'll understand why suicide ganking is not only perfectly acceptable, but one of the best parts of EvE.


Your problem i think is your misunderstanding of balance. One more time i will repeat myself - Eve is not a pure sanbox, Eve is not a pure PVP game. Pure PVP is all about non-stop killing. Frags, frags,frags, nothing more. Counter-Strike - pure PVP. Quake, Unreal, many others.
EVE has a mixed gameplay model. According to this i'm not able to understand why besides of enormous PVP-areas we still don't have any quiet and safe PVE area?
Who will suffer if we will have one?


Until you understand the fundamental flaw in your thinking, you will be unhappy with EvE. There is no lack of balance between pure PvP and pure PvE in EvE. There is no pure PvE in EvE.

EvE = Everyone vs Everyone.

Fly safe.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#49 - 2014-05-22 16:19:23 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Let's be fair - there are two different gameplay models, which are mixed in EVE - PVP and PVE.


This I feel is the core of your problem.

In EvE, there is no separation between PvP and PvE.

None.

Zero.

Once you understand this, you'll understand why suicide ganking is not only perfectly acceptable, but one of the best parts of EvE.


Your problem i think is your misunderstanding of balance. One more time i will repeat myself - Eve is not a pure sanbox, Eve is not a pure PVP game. Pure PVP is all about non-stop killing. Frags, frags,frags, nothing more. Counter-Strike - pure PVP. Quake, Unreal, many others.
EVE has a mixed gameplay model. According to this i'm not able to understand why besides of enormous PVP-areas we still don't have any quiet and safe PVE area?
Who will suffer if we will have one?


Until you understand the fundamental flaw in your thinking, you will be unhappy with EvE. There is no lack of balance between pure PvP and pure PvE in EvE. There is no pure PvE in EvE.

EvE = Everyone vs Everyone.

Fly safe.


This^

EVE is a game that embraces the MMO in MMORPG, and is built around player interaction and the consequences of such. If you don't want to play a game where you have to learn to adapt to other players then this isn't the game for you.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#50 - 2014-05-22 16:23:24 UTC
Enjoy all of that empty space.

Enjoy the brilliance of the zombie spaceship AI as it charges toward you with guns blazing. You don't even have any friends to share this experience with anymore so I really do hope you enjoy it. Enjoy the isk you earn from those missions, you won't be spending it on anything outside of the LP store.

Enjoy your 1 man economy of mining the ore, refining the ore for yourself manufacturing the products yourself, buying them from yourself, and storing them in your item hangar in the only station you dock in, because there is no reason to visit any other system. Enjoy hoarding thousands of useless items. Useless because the majority of them were intended to be used to interact with other players, and you removed the other players from the game.

Open source Eve is already out there and no one cares. It's boring.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#51 - 2014-05-22 16:25:11 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
doesnt matter. the materials in high sec and the items u can make and find still allow u to influence the game as a whole. U dnt honestly think u should be able to go to an asteroid belt and steal the ore other ppl want to mine and get away with it do u?

this just isnt the game where u get to play ur own little world. it never will be that game. it should never be that game.

but theres always star citizen. set that PvP slider to zero and go enjoy a game where interaction is not the core game principle.


I'm not looking for anything else. And unfortunately, i like to be a man of my word. There will be non-CCP EVE. Free, opensource and clean.


SiSi server.

Have fun.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#52 - 2014-05-22 16:40:20 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:

What if some players don't need this violent socialisation?


Too bad, that's pretty much the entire game.

Quote:

What are you going to do? Shoot them? Are you shooting anyone who's asking you to leave him alone?



Yep.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#53 - 2014-05-22 16:41:27 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:

I'm not looking for anything else. And unfortunately, i like to be a man of my word. There will be non-CCP EVE. Free, opensource and clean.


If you're suggesting that you can or will make a private server for this game, not only will you be banned, you will also find yourself with a lawsuit in short order.

And you would deserve both, you thieving scumbag.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#54 - 2014-05-22 16:50:18 UTC

1.) I find suicide ganking fine. I don't suicide gank; I have been suicide ganked; and I find suicide ganking absolutely acceptable.

2.) I occasionally mine on my indy toon, and fly it and fit it with the full knowledge that suicide gankers will attack at some point. I assess the danger of the system, local, etc, and fit appropriately. My losses were from very dedicated ganking groups, and/or from tactical misjudgements on my part.

3.) I freighter stuff around highsec, and pay close attention to the value of my cargo, specifically because I know my freighter may be ganked. I'm very much looking forward to the freighter changes, and love the idea that I will have more control over my tank to cargo value ratio. I've moved stupidly expensive cargo holds, and plan my routes and use scouts specifically because I know others will attack when they see my loot pinata.

4.) I occasionally fly blingy missioning ships. I know that fully blinged out, I'm very much a loot pinata. As such, I keep an eye on local activity, often toning down the bling when I suspect its dangerous. I use insta undocks and docks, and take steps to be hard to kill.

5.) I also very much believe in balance. Balance does not mean your BS can fend off 30 destroyers. Quite the contrary, as balance to me means I can solo a rapier in a taranis by exploiting the weakness of his ship.

6.) Finally, I very firmly believe that EvE is a dystopia, and the ONLY justice you'll receive is the justice you personally enforce. This is as true in highsec as it is in nullsec, with the only difference being the type of help you receive from an attack.


Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#55 - 2014-05-22 16:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Lohengrin
Daichi Yamato wrote:


SiSi server.

Have fun.


There is not enough space for creativity. I'm sure EVE has an unlimited potential. In that case CCP is bounded by your sympathies and i'm not.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


If you're suggesting that you can or will make a private server for this game, not only will you be banned, you will also find yourself with a lawsuit in short order.

And you would deserve both, you thieving scumbag.


I'm sure, you will have enough bravery to visit my country and to hand over me the notice about this lawsuit. Cool


---

Thanks to everyone for your comments. Glad to see how many people are not indifferent to this topic. Good luck and my best regards to all of you.
Mattpat139 Sukarala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-05-22 17:13:13 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
I'm going to ask you a very old question - how long injustice will take place in EVE?
How long we are going to tolerate impunity of suicide-gankers?
How long our universe will stay the paradise for griefers?

You are playing EVE. You spend your time and money. opensource and clean.



you lost me here doesn't everyone just use PLEX anyway.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5376912#post5376912

Sigras
Conglomo
#57 - 2014-05-22 17:13:57 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Let's be fair - there are two different gameplay models, which are mixed in EVE - PVP and PVE.


This I feel is the core of your problem.

In EvE, there is no separation between PvP and PvE.

None.

Zero.

Once you understand this, you'll understand why suicide ganking is not only perfectly acceptable, but one of the best parts of EvE.


Your problem i think is your misunderstanding of balance. One more time i will repeat myself - Eve is not a pure sanbox, Eve is not a pure PVP game. Pure PVP is all about non-stop killing. Frags, frags,frags, nothing more. Counter-Strike - pure PVP. Quake, Unreal, many others.
EVE has a mixed gameplay model. According to this i'm not able to understand why besides of enormous PVP-areas we still don't have any quiet and safe PVE area?
Who will suffer if we will have one?

This is your problem; what you dont understand is that everything in Eve is PvP. Literally Everything.

You run level 4 missions alone in a high sec system? You're doing PvP because you're inflating the economy making my ISK worth less.

You run factional warfare missions avoiding other people where you can? Youre doing PvP because your LP makes mine worth less.

You sit in a station trading things in Jita? Youre doing PvP because you're reducing my spread and/or profit margins.

Everything in Eve is PvP because everything you do effects me. It's one of the great things about Eve, but also the price you pay.

That being said, in order to become a gank target you must have had more value in your ship than 4x EHP * 1000 which is a fairly common gank threshold ... your fault.
Itrala
Trains Awesomeness
#58 - 2014-05-22 18:00:05 UTC
I've been around for a while doing a lot of differents things, (except null sec which I,ve not tried yet)

Ganking is absolutly a good way to make money, it's the base of how cheap your cost is compared to what your target may have.

I've been ganked once when T3 where really expensive (1B and over for ships and subsystem) I didn't know any better so I send a petition and then I learned that is it a perfectly valid way to make money.

People in the REAL world do all the time. What do you think somalians are doing down in Africa? The're ganking on people. They seize the ships and sell or ransom the cargo to get money.

Is there justice done out there as well? Yes they are called Mercenaries (Or PMC) they guard you from other people. Well... Pay some in Eve also and be done about it.

Oh BTW I'm bored tonight I might actually go in high sec and see what target I could make money out of :P
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#59 - 2014-05-22 18:02:59 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:


I'm sure, you will have enough bravery to visit my country and to hand over me the notice about this lawsuit. Cool


curious, he thinks ganking in a game is reprehensible and he shouldnt have to get justice on his own, but RL theft is fine and if u want justice u have to do it urself.

Richard Lohengrin wrote:

Good luck and my best regards to all of you.


id say something similar, but i'd be lying.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#60 - 2014-05-22 20:14:56 UTC
If and when you have a serious and well worded proposal for the betterment of EvE, please feel free to post it.
This however is neither and as such gets a lock.

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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