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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

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Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2181 - 2014-05-21 22:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
RE: using JFs in hisec. It seems dumb at first, but it allows you to travel with near-complete safety (assuming you aren't flying around with a wardecced, in which case you deserve what you get). Stay at your keyboard, have cynos up on lowsec stations in range, and if someone starts trying to bump you for a gank then you just jump to freedom since they can't actually tackle you.

I mean, it could theoretically be done, but it would be highly impractical since they can jump directly out of gatecloak if their in-gate looks fishy.
Claudine va Tefairevoir
Doomheim
#2182 - 2014-05-21 22:04:18 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
vikari wrote:
You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....

over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time?


I'm just curious to know why you care about align time at all? If you're jumping to low sec you should be immediately initiating warp to the gate and getting your cyno alt to triple web you so you insta-warp. You should then be docking at the first station you find in the next system and transferring your stuff into a regular freighter and then using that to haul with no more than around 2b worth of stuff in it each trip (gate-to-gate, not autopilot). I do that even if it's 20b, 10 trips. It takes so long to earn that much it's not problem to me if it takes days to move it.

The way to keep your JF safe is just to have it in space for the absolute minimum amount of time. There's really no other strategy if CCP aren't going to allow it to have a tank commensurate with its cost.


This. Max-Cargo JF and Max-Tank Freighter is the way to go. I never understood why tank on a JF should be important at all.
if you are bumped off station or your cyno is killed while in jump, you JF would most likely die even with 2mln EHP.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2183 - 2014-05-21 22:08:09 UTC
I like the revised changes. Well done.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2184 - 2014-05-21 22:08:44 UTC
I think there's still room for JFs to fit things other than cargo expanders. The last load in a JF run is typically not the maximum size of the JF, so swapping some or all of your cargo expanders for capital fuel efficiency lowslots for that jump is smart. Also, if you are doing multiple runs bringing stuff from highsec to lowsec, fitting istabs and/or hyperspatial optimizers to reduce your travel time with an empty JF is also smart.

Lowslots enable this behavior much better than rigs, since modules are much cheaper and can be removed from the JF without losing them. Rigs required you to make a single choice up-front and had that choice essentially be permanent due to the cost of capital rigs and the fact that they are destroyed when they are removed.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Smertyukovitch
Caladari CareBear Corporation
#2185 - 2014-05-21 22:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Smertyukovitch
That version without rigs is crap. Why?
First of all you talking about giving JF pilots more options. In essence they are all about cutting down cargo they had in exchange of restoring some of the other stats they had. In other words "cut your arm off then you can eat less". It is a nerf of JF`s as you leave to players only bad choices.
Secondly JF`s with rigs and low slots would be able to carry LVL 5 infrastructure upgrades. Сonsequences of that you can imagine you self. Personally i would love all of them. I would even agree to spend twice more fuel to jump but be capable of carrying this stuff.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2186 - 2014-05-21 22:14:23 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
This means that Freighters can get significantly higher maximum capacity than before using modules, and we're increasing the volume of packaged capital ships (to 1.3 million m3) and unpackaged station containers (to 2 million m3) to compensate.



I am still not sure why CCP is so afraid of caps in highsec, especially even unassembled ones. It would make trading them easier.


Is the cap ban before they changed the old aoe doommsdays? if so then i understand. Cant have titans doing supernovas' on the jita undock.

But now, doomsdays are "aimed" weapons.I dont see why not now.

Ofcourse If they did naturally, using doomsdays in hisec would be a criminal offence and youd get alpha'd by concord.


actually it goes back even farther, when you could actually permatank CONCORD in a battleship. they fixed that problem and realized the potential for conflict by keeping the rule in place. i personaly belive allowing capitals into highsec would fix a lot of gatecamp issues at regional null borders, but would open way to many other issues.
Luxotor
This Cyno Will Eventually Make Sense
#2187 - 2014-05-21 22:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Luxotor
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone the Op has now been updated with a revised version of the design. As many of you were anticipating, we will be achieving the goal of customizability through low slots instead of rig slots. Big thanks to everyone who has provided reasoned feedback in the thread and special thanks to the CSM.

The most significant issues raised in the thread about the previous version of the design are:
  • The permanence of customizability that relies completely on rigs. As the only classes to have rig slots alone with no fitting slots, Freighters and Jump Freighters would have allowed customization towards a player's most common use cases, but would still lack the very important ability to adjust fittings in response to changing needs and environments.
  • The relative lack of interesting choices for Jump Freighter pilots. Due to the very unique situation of Jump Freighters, they did not receive very significant benefits from any rigs other than cargohold optimization. This is partially an issue with the lack of gameplay around JF use and their near complete safety when used optimally, but it also reflected a lack of good options.

To deal with the first issue, we are making the significant change of providing the goal of customizability through low slots rather than rig slots. Keeping this path balanced requires a few extra tricks but we believe that it will provide a more interesting set of gameplay choices for freighter pilots to make on an everyday basis.
All Freighters and Jump Freighters will receive 3 low slots, and not receive any rig slots. They will have very restrictive powergrid and cpu totals, and a special role bonus that allows the use of Reinforced Bulkhead modules.

In Kronos we are also adding a new set of low-slot warp speed enhancing modules that can be obtained through low-sec exploration. These modules will increase warp speed by a flat addition of 0.2, 0.25 or 0.3 au/s each. We expect that these will be popular modules for use on Freighters.

To help address the lack of interesting options for Jump Freighters, we are planning to introduce a set of jump fuel conservation modules in the Crius release in July. These modules will not be available in Kronos.

So we expect that most Freighter and Jump Freighter pilots will use their three low slots to mix and match the following modules to meet their needs:
  • Expanded Cargoholds
  • Reinforced Bulkheads
  • Hyperspatial Accelerators (warp speed modules)
  • Inertia Stabilizers
  • Overdrive Injector Systems
  • (For certain armor tanking fits) Adaptive Nano Platings
  • (For Jump Freighters) Capacitor Power Relays
  • (For Jump Freighters after the Crius release) Jump Fuel Conservation Modules


The base cargo capacity of Freighters is being decreased so that a set of three Tech Two Expanded Cargoholds adds 21-25% cargo above the previous maximum values. For Jump Freighters, three T2 Expanders will increase cargo capacity by 1-2%.
This means that Freighters can get significantly higher maximum capacity than before using modules, and we're increasing the volume of packaged capital ships (to 1.3 million m3) and unpackaged station containers (to 2 million m3) to compensate.

The base EHP of all Freighters and Jump Freighters is being increased (since Expanded Cargoholds affect freighter hp more than cargo rigs do) and more emphasis is being placed on armor and shield than before (although all Freighters still gain the majority of their hitpoints from hull).

Let us know what you think!


God damn these changes are so much better than what you were thinking of before. Having the ability to refit modules instead of the constrained usage from rigs is an infinitely better idea and I'm very pleased that you took an open and proactive approach to revisiting this subject. The addition of jump fuel conservation modules makes me even more happy.

No complaints from me - very happy with how this was dealt with. Wondering if CCP has thought about a slot 9 navigation implant that reduces jump fuel consumption (say by 1/3/5/8%?).

Thank you again for taking the time to revisit the ideas laid out in your original post and my appreciation extends to the CSM for their input as well.

THE NIGHT IS DARK AND FULL OF TERRORS!
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#2188 - 2014-05-21 22:24:50 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
RE: using JFs in hisec. It seems dumb at first, but it allows you to travel with near-complete safety (assuming you aren't flying around with a wardecced, in which case you deserve what you get). Stay at your keyboard, have cynos up on lowsec stations in range, and if someone starts trying to bump you for a gank then you just jump to freedom since they can't actually tackle you.

I mean, it could theoretically be done, but it would be highly impractical since they can jump directly out of gatecloak if their in-gate looks fishy.


People already use JFs in highsec, not extremely common though.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2189 - 2014-05-21 22:31:03 UTC
Love the rigs -> low slots change. Will they be able to deploy mobile depots and switch them in space as well?
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2190 - 2014-05-21 22:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Luxotor wrote:
. Wondering if CCP has thought about a slot 9 navigation implant that reduces jump fuel conservation (say by 1/3/5/8%?).


Nice idea


Fixed quoting. ISD Ezwal.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2191 - 2014-05-21 22:37:16 UTC
Claudine va Tefairevoir wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
vikari wrote:
You are still nerfing the hell out of JFs....

over 5 seconds gained in alignment for every JF type, over 6 for most. You know with all 3 low slots being cargo expanders and that giving only 1-2% increase in cargo, you are forcing JFs to fit cargo expanders. It's to expensive to fly them, not too. So exactly how are we going to make up for the loss alignment time?


I'm just curious to know why you care about align time at all? If you're jumping to low sec you should be immediately initiating warp to the gate and getting your cyno alt to triple web you so you insta-warp. You should then be docking at the first station you find in the next system and transferring your stuff into a regular freighter and then using that to haul with no more than around 2b worth of stuff in it each trip (gate-to-gate, not autopilot). I do that even if it's 20b, 10 trips. It takes so long to earn that much it's not problem to me if it takes days to move it.

The way to keep your JF safe is just to have it in space for the absolute minimum amount of time. There's really no other strategy if CCP aren't going to allow it to have a tank commensurate with its cost.


This. Max-Cargo JF and Max-Tank Freighter is the way to go. I never understood why tank on a JF should be important at all.
if you are bumped off station or your cyno is killed while in jump, you JF would most likely die even with 2mln EHP.

JF can't cyno into highsec, HTH.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2192 - 2014-05-21 22:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, “outing” of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
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Thread unlocked.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Adunh Slavy
#2193 - 2014-05-21 23:47:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone the Op has now been updated with a revised version of the design.

...

Let us know what you think!



Much better

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#2194 - 2014-05-21 23:51:35 UTC
Yeah much better.

Is a fully expanded JF losing ehp compared to current cos of the drawbacks of the module ?
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc.
#2195 - 2014-05-22 00:07:09 UTC
I dig it.
cynobutt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2196 - 2014-05-22 00:17:04 UTC
EVE has never been about nor ever should be about convenience. A nerf to freighters would have been a huge step in the right direction for this game.

CCP by you appeasing to people who say-- if this changed then it will be harder to do this or if this is done it will be easier to do that bla bla-- in an effort to keep people subbed does more harm to the game IN THE LONG RUN. This is a niche game and by trying to mainstream it you will lose sight of what made this game great.

But 3 low slots instead of rigs??? Just doesn't even sound or feel right for a freighter.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#2197 - 2014-05-22 00:20:06 UTC
The move from rigs to low slots is good. Allows us to actually customize the freighter without worrying about destroying rigs if we need to refit.

While rigs gave us some options, they were hard and costly options. This is more flexible and I think we can work with this a lot more.

Thank you.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#2198 - 2014-05-22 00:23:14 UTC
Thank you guys!

Once more, you have proven that you are great game designers.

I am really happy with the decision to move from rigs to lows. It's a simple and elegant solution to most problems the rig proposal would have brought with it.

Now that the base EHP is actually increasing, there also doesn't seem to be a need for a construction cost reduction, the overall value of the bare hull remaining in the same ballpark.

Good job!

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Delhaven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2199 - 2014-05-22 00:26:11 UTC
Aerissa Nolen wrote:
http://xyjax.com/optimizer_kronos/

Has been updated to replace rigs with cargo expander mods and the new base stats. Other mods to come "soon" as I get a chance to tinker.
For those who want to play with the numbers.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#2200 - 2014-05-22 00:28:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I want to take this opportunity to remind people that pre-patch market speculation is never guaranteed and CCP takes no responsibility for any isk lost from speculation.

Twisted