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Loot Scattering removed from Exploration Sites

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Author
CCP Bayesian
#1 - 2014-05-20 11:24:15 UTC
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#2 - 2014-05-20 11:39:55 UTC
Yay!

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Scatha
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2014-05-20 11:43:17 UTC
So long spew containers, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-05-20 11:43:26 UTC
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.

www.crossingzebras.com

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-05-20 11:51:35 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.



not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them.

good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D
Noriko Mai
#6 - 2014-05-20 11:57:12 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Xander Phoena wrote:
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.



not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them.

good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D

Let's add "Insta finish that minigame Tokens" to the new store. What?

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#7 - 2014-05-20 12:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.



Here is my feedback:

Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again.

BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half!
And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about).
Counter-intuitively, the removal of half of the loot will probably not do much to the income of explorers. If the prices explode and they'll just find half as many items, there may be little to no effect after a transition phase.

The effect will be another:
Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff).
Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey.
If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the usage of those 300+ items again!

Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement.
Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece).


So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism).
Noriko Mai
#8 - 2014-05-20 12:30:33 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.



Here is my feedback:

Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again.

BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half!
Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff).
Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey.
If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the use of those 300+ items again!
(granted, some of this MAY be offset by more ppl doing exploration if the prices explode,but then again, they'll just find half as many items).

Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement.
Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece).


So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism).


And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about).

I quit exploration because of loot spew. It was just too annoying. With that removed I may do it again. So the reduction may be compensated a bit by more people doing exploration again.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Orla- King-Griffin
#9 - 2014-05-20 13:00:57 UTC
Agreed, that splosion was really irritating. I'll have to try this again now that it's gone.

Ah shite...

Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#10 - 2014-05-20 13:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Iunius Brutus
I can't see your statistics but I can assume that any reasonable explorer was able to get all the worthwhile loot from data sites (less from relic sites) - most of the time only 1 type of can had notable loot (parts), sometimes data.
If you reduce decryptor drop rate by half their price will go through the roof...
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#11 - 2014-05-20 13:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Edward Olmops wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.



Here is my feedback:

Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again.

BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half!
And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about).
Counter-intuitively, the removal of half of the loot will probably not do much to the income of explorers. If the prices explode and they'll just find half as many items, there may be little to no effect after a transition phase.

The effect will be another:
Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff).
Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey.
If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the usage of those 300+ items again!

Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement.
Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece).


So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism).

Quoting this for truth. Any explorer worth their salt would get practically all of the loot from the cans by knowing which cans were worth clicking on in the loot spill minigame.

If you're halving the loot tables, you're essentially halving the supply of these sites. I know the doubling thing was initially done because you guys thought people wouldn't be able to get all of the good loot from the site alone, but it ended up being one of the better changes in Odyssey, what with making T2 rigs a viable option. T2 rig prices increasing to the old absurd levels would absolutely suck especially for capital pilots: Phoenixes after the changes will practically depend on T2 Rigors (already at least 500m a pop), and Freighters will need T2 rigs to not be debilitated by the nerfs.
CCP Bayesian
#12 - 2014-05-20 13:11:53 UTC
As I said above the loot balancing is a WIP but I'll make sure your feedback reaches the right ears. I'm pretty sure we don't want to ruin any serendipitous benefits of the changes we made.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

RcTamiya Leontis
Magister Mortalis.
#13 - 2014-05-20 13:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: RcTamiya Leontis
Some people may hate me now... but why not get a wastefactof build in depending on how well you do in the minigame and rework the minigame a little bit, instead of removing loot (i am happy loot scattering gets removed :) )
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-05-20 13:35:06 UTC
Marcus Iunius Brutus wrote:
I can't see your statistics but I can assume that any reasonable explorer was able to get all the worthwhile loot from data sites (less from relic sites) - most of the time only 1 type of can had notable loot (parts), sometimes data.
If you reduce decryptor drop rate by half their price will go through the roof...



don't forget that greyscale et al. have some significant changes for invention planned. everything industry is about to change and it's really hard to make some prediction on the actual outcome.
Sir Constantin
#15 - 2014-05-20 13:54:40 UTC
Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding.Cry
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#16 - 2014-05-20 14:09:46 UTC
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:
Some people may hate me now... but why not get a wastefactof build in depending on how well you do in the minigame and rework the minigame a little bit, instead of removing loot (i am happy loot scattering gets removed :) )


Well, the answer will be that there are no ressources for this now, but for spicing up the hacking minigame, I would like to advertise my earlier proposals here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4278637#post4278637
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#17 - 2014-05-20 14:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
Sir Constantin wrote:
Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding.Cry


Why would one want this?
This is finally some PvE content that is NOT based on dumb shooting red crosses.
If you still want to train Gunnery and/or kill rats, there is a ton of other sites out there.

edit: plus it's something that focusses more on PLAYER skill than on character skill (that's the part of the loot explosion I liked). If you have a complete N00b corpmate, who is in the first days of his EVE career when waiting 8 hours for a skill to complete is half an eternity, this is something you can point them to.
Tell them a few tricks and tell them: go there, get rich.

That is not possible if there are rats around or anything else that requires more character skills.
Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-05-20 14:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Starkey
Loot sprew was trivial to master with just a little practice and the environmental implant... Now you reduce drop rates by half and exploration income is nerfed greatly (because there was hardly a reason to miss a can before), and as a consequence T2 rigs are back to their ridiculous prices. Explorer ganking is also almost impossible now as it requires no real attention to loot stuff anymore.

meh

If you want to nerf the drop tables, anything more than 20% is going to make the activity completly worthless to any proficient explorer.

I've made a signature. I hope you're enjoying it. www.evetrademaster.com - web based asset manager & profit tracker

Corey Edward
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-05-20 14:32:07 UTC
Halving the loot tables is going to have a huge effect. T2 rig prices will go back to being unaffordable for regular uses. And I'm sure you guys would love to see the prices rise on datacores, encryptors, etc.

Most explorers have become very proficient at doing these sites. With prescanning each can, I usually only lose a couple mill from each site. BPCs aren't even an issue because I can always get those 100% of the time if I want them. This could very well be a 45% nerf to player income. For the people that got used to loot spew, it really wasn't that bad...I'd rather have to deal with the spew than have the tables nerfed further.
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2014-05-20 14:57:43 UTC
After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

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