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[Kronos] Blockade Runner Rebalance

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Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#281 - 2014-05-20 11:09:55 UTC
Hey guys, we've made some tweaks to the mobility on the Prowler, improving base speed and agility and adding a little bit more mass. This gives the Prowler a noticeable speed increase vs the other BRs and improves its align time slightly.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#282 - 2014-05-20 11:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Myrthiis wrote:

Honnestly i'm dissapointed ,you know very well than the cost of t1 cats is 2 M.And you perfectly know than 2 t1 cats would be enought to blow a Blockade runner in a 0.7 system .
So please be honnest there is absolutly not a chance that you would'nt be profitable ganking BR even blind and tied. The cargo value is comprised between 100 M and 2 B thats a ratio of 10 to 100 lost Cats even t2 before being unprofitable Roll
So there is no relation between scannability and profitability ....


We experimented with this when the change happened. We lost isk.

You know nothing about ganking, hence your comment about swapping out ammo on a cat. Not only would you lose isk randomly ganking blockade runners but you would also have to grind up your sec status after a few ganks so we have a large downtime. The entire enterprise is a waste of time and isk. I also doubt you even fly a blockade runner, you simply see this as a negative impact to a group of players you do not like and thus, you want to support it no matter if it is a bad game design.

Before these changes it was hard and rare to get a blockade runner with juicy cargo, now it is all but impossible. This is wrong and bad gameplay. We should at least have some chance if the blockade runners pilot is flying badly.
Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2014-05-20 12:07:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, we've made some tweaks to the mobility on the Prowler, improving base speed and agility and adding a little bit more mass. This gives the Prowler a noticeable speed increase vs the other BRs and improves its align time slightly.


Going on racial flavor here, anything going to happen to the Prorator to give it that little bit of an 'edge' that was watered down with these notes?
Cade Windstalker
#284 - 2014-05-20 13:46:17 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I don't get why everyone is suddenly surprised at the align time on the Prowler. It's not like this is some new thing they just introduced, they didn't touch the align times.

The Prowler has an absolutely tiny sig though, which is a bigger bonus than 8 seconds worth of align time >.>

They did change the align time by increasing the mass but its barely noticeable as Prowler Viator and Prorator will have a 5s align time with a nano .
About the sig radius it not relevant as you should be cloacked before locking,and the difference in sig radius between the four hulls isn't that big anyway at least not in a noticeable way when targeting one of them.


This is exactly why sig-radius is more relevant than align time. Since you're going to spend most of your time cloaked how quickly you can be locked is a bigger deal than align time and even a few fractions of a second may push you over a break point and mean the difference between you getting tackled and blown up vs getting away clean.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2014-05-20 13:56:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, we've made some tweaks to the mobility on the Prowler, improving base speed and agility and adding a little bit more mass. This gives the Prowler a noticeable speed increase vs the other BRs and improves its align time slightly.

I can have my cake and eat it too?

sweet

can we fit doomsdays to it next?
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#286 - 2014-05-20 14:46:46 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, we've made some tweaks to the mobility on the Prowler, improving base speed and agility and adding a little bit more mass. This gives the Prowler a noticeable speed increase vs the other BRs and improves its align time slightly.


Going on racial flavor here, anything going to happen to the Prorator to give it that little bit of an 'edge' that was watered down with these notes?


A few K more EHP would be in line with Amarr tactics, and make it the highsec hauler of choice, without unbalancing any actual hauling stats.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#287 - 2014-05-20 17:36:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

On the subject of bubble immunity, we are of the opinion that adding that bonus to these ships would be far too strong and trivialize the risks of moving medium sized cargos through nullsec space. This isn't really the place for bubble immunity.

And on cargo scanner immunity, I completely agree that the bonus is more powerful (too powerful when combined with everything else) on the Deep Space Transports, and that it can be a liability for some autopiloting BRs. However it can be a useful tool for carrying extremely high value cargos and it fits so perfectly with the thematic role of the Blockade Runners that I am quite hesitant to remove it completely. Having the bonus prevent scanning from NPC customs officers is an idea I like a lot and that we will investigate further.


Agree with the bubble immunity but strongly disagree on the scan immunity.

Blockade runners are very agile and already were immune to scans due to cov ops cloak. Their speed and agility allowed us the freedom to autopilot them when running empty/low value, and use the cloak when carrying expensive cargo.

Now we're forced to manually fly it at all times in fear of them getting blown up as loot pinatas. Scan immunity on DST would make a lot more sense.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#288 - 2014-05-20 17:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, we've made some tweaks to the mobility on the Prowler, improving base speed and agility and adding a little bit more mass. This gives the Prowler a noticeable speed increase vs the other BRs and improves its align time slightly.

Hey Fozzie what about the PG, the Crane and the Prowler can't fit a 10 experimental Mwd + Cov ops+Cov cyno without offlining them can't we have 10 more Pg for the crane and 5 for the Prowler to avoid this gymnastic each time we want to use them ?
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#289 - 2014-05-20 18:07:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Before these changes it was hard and rare to get a blockade runner with juicy cargo, now it is all but impossible. This is wrong and bad gameplay. We should at least have some chance if the blockade runners pilot is flying badly.


So, does this mean that it's safe to assume that the average APing BR is empty, and this is the actual reason you're unhappy with the unscannable hold?

I have to admit I've been irrationally afraid of not being at keyboard with a blockade runner in the past because I figured *someone* would try to knock it over, but it sounds like there's not exactly nothing to worry about, but it's rare enough that it probably doesn't matter, unless someone specifically hates you.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#290 - 2014-05-20 18:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
baltec1 wrote:

We experimented with this when the change happened. We lost isk.

You know nothing about ganking, hence your comment about swapping out ammo on a cat. Not only would you lose isk randomly ganking blockade runners but you would also have to grind up your sec status after a few ganks so we have a large downtime. The entire enterprise is a waste of time and isk. I also doubt you even fly a blockade runner, you simply see this as a negative impact to a group of players you do not like and thus, you want to support it no matter if it is a bad game design.

Before these changes it was hard and rare to get a blockade runner with juicy cargo, now it is all but impossible. This is wrong and bad gameplay. We should at least have some chance if the blockade runners pilot is flying badly.


Well your quite the guy ,so another personnal attack when no more arguments .Maybe i wasn't clear enought thats why your confused i didn't mean swapping ammo on the cats ,but speaking in a more general ways about those nasty Emp and Explosive Hole in both shield and armor on 3/4 BR making them even more fragile to a Inty or anything roaming around a gate where a BR pilot could mess up is cloack+mwd trick or simply being decloacked, in other security status than H-S .My bad should have been more clear .Is it crystal now ?
And please avoid us ,the goon are victim of discrimation !!!
On your final comments seriously ,you are a grown up ....Before these changes BR was catched on a daily basis and it s was hard and rare to catch a juicy one because pilots aren't stupid and not many of them will carry several billions ...Now it ll be the same thing as before .This is good gameplay, that is promoting risk Vs rewards and active piloting over lazyness .Nothing is more easy to catch than an autopilot transport ship
Jattila Vrek
Green Visstick High
#291 - 2014-05-20 18:27:26 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

...I also doubt you even fly a blockade runner, you simply see this as a negative impact to a group of players you do not like and thus, you want to support it no matter if it is a bad game design. ...

... a BR pilot could mess up is cloack+mwd trick or simply being decloacked, in other security status than H-S .My bad should have been more clear .Is it crystal now ?...

It's clear.
Alexis Nightwish
#292 - 2014-05-20 18:54:05 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:

, and enough CPU to run the cyno and probe launcher with standard set of modules w/o the need for CPU rigs (all skills at V).

This is not really necessary. Just offline MWD and online cyno when needed. I always do this on covops frigs and bombers. No need to keep covops cyno constantly online. Also you won't die to a missclick this way.

Good point, thank you.


Fozzie, I saw the revisions to the Prowler and they look good, thank you! With that speed an overheated MWD may get you back to the gate if the situation calls for it, and the agility and mass are now pretty much where they need to be. Only thing I ask is for is a third high slot instead of the third low. ^^

Any chance of a small boost to the Prorator? Maybe move a high or mid to low to make it the king of fitting flexibility?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

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Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Jezza McWaffle
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#293 - 2014-05-20 20:23:19 UTC
Any news on changing the immunity to include or be for hiding goods from NPC's?

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2014-05-20 20:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Myrthiis wrote:
The risk of being ganked should'nt be lower for a lazy pilot ,no matter the value of cargo .CCP should keep promoting active piloting over automation even when this is a game feature and unscannability do that perfectly .

Well objectively speaking you still have a higher chance of being ganked autopiloting an empty BR than you do manually (and correctly) flying one that's carrying billions of ISK worth of cargo, even if it so happens that people can scan your cargo and know for sure that there's nothing inside for the former.

So I don't see what the problem is. Blockade runners should not have scan immunity.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#295 - 2014-05-20 21:37:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Well objectively speaking you still have a higher chance of being ganked autopiloting an empty BR than you do manually (and correctly) flying one that's carrying billions of ISK worth of cargo, even if it so happens that people can scan your cargo and know for sure that there's nothing inside for the former.

So I don't see what the problem is. Blockade runners should not have scan immunity.

Note you've said it yourself , that don't come from me .You do recognize than"scannability" isn't worsening the risk of being ganked if the ships is flied actively .
So the only thing does "unscannability" is force BR pilots to actively fly them .It does make no sense to remove this characteristic who promote active gameplay,those avoiding abuses.

What makes BR unscannable is first "cov ops" as you have recognized yourself then come a second characteristic "unscannable" who force pilot to actively fly the ship to avoid random ganking by pirates .On a side note the profitability of this activity isn't related to"unscannability",but to the median cargo value transported ,as killboard will show it to anyone .

But please let us know what is the real purpose behind this lobbying to remove "unscannability",as i proved this charateristic promote active gameplay and doesn't hurt profitability .
Spell it loud and clear ,maybe like that we could have a real discussion .
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#296 - 2014-05-20 22:14:21 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Any news on changing the immunity to include or be for hiding goods from NPC's?


It's something we're going to investigate, but not for the Kronos release.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2014-05-20 22:59:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Any news on changing the immunity to include or be for hiding goods from NPC's?


It's something we're going to investigate, but not for the Kronos release.


Fozzie Pretty Please for Christmas? I'll send you a billion isk and a handful of every booster in the game, with spirits and tobacco too. You'll be able to party in every ship you fly for forever. I'll eve send you a handmade Christmas card.

( Note this is a joke. I'm not seriously trying to bribe CCP... probably. )
Belinda HwaFang
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2014-05-20 23:01:54 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


My one concern with having the bonus prevent scanning by NPC customs officers is that you've now removed any issues with transporting illegal goods through high-sec. Hold full of drugs? Throw it in a Blockade Runner and auto-pilot straight to Jita 4-4.



And get suicide ganked. No BR pilot worth their salt is going to autopilot through pipes to Jita.

As for risk vs reward that's for the game design team to look at , think about, and test at this point.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#299 - 2014-05-20 23:05:25 UTC
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


My one concern with having the bonus prevent scanning by NPC customs officers is that you've now removed any issues with transporting illegal goods through high-sec. Hold full of drugs? Throw it in a Blockade Runner and auto-pilot straight to Jita 4-4.



And get suicide ganked. No BR pilot worth their salt is going to autopilot through pipes to Jita.

As for risk vs reward that's for the game design team to look at , think about, and test at this point.

Customs immunity would make transporting drugs completely risk free though. Plus destroy smuggling as a profession.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#300 - 2014-05-20 23:07:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or you could just get rid of the contraband system entirely. Nothing of value will be lost.


The contraband system, when implemented as a suspect flag after customs detect contraband, will add meaningful gameplay. In the same way that pirates rejoiced when stealing from jet cans flagged them as legal targets, so too pirates will rejoice when running through hi sec with contraband flags them as legal targets, rather than costing them their cargo, ISK and standings :)