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[Kronos 2014] Machariel: King of Level 3s (86M/isk in assets/hour)
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stoicfaux
#1 - 2014-05-18 21:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Once upon a time, I blitzed level 3s in an Ishtar to see how much you could make an hour (which was ~50M isk in assets per hour at 2,000 isk/LP.) One thing to come of this was that the Ishtar spent 33% of the time traveling even with a 5.67 AU/s warp speed. Original Ishtar discussion here.

The upcoming Kronos (summer 2014) release has some interesting changes:
* the Machariel will be given a warp speed bonus (of 3.0 AU/s base (up from 2.0))
* sentries will be nerfed somewhat
* warp speed rigs will be stacking penalized

After some idle speculation about the impact of warp speed on mission efficiency, namely that travel time does have an impact misison income, afkalt posts "Actually, wouldn't a super fast Mach rival the raven or Ishtar for L3 work? It pops little stuff so damned fast."

So, I hopped onto sisi and ran 30 missions in a Machariel setup for DPS and warp speed. (Fitting below.)

Googledocs spreadsheet with the Mach mission data.

Results for Mach:
~86M isk/hour in assets @ 2,000 isk/LP
Average mission time: 3m29s
Average travel time: 1m33s
Average in mission time: 1m55s

Average # jumps to mission: 0.33
Average Distance traveled to mission: 19.79 (round trip)

Versus Ishtar:
~53M isk/hour in assets @ 2,000 isk/LP
Average mission time: 5m03s
Average travel time: 1m41s
Average in mission time: 3m22s

Average # jumps to mission: 0.45
Average Distance traveled to mission: 22.65 (round trip)


The takeaway is that the Mach's additional DPS makes a difference. (Or the randomly chosen missions favored the Mach heavily.)


Assumptions/Disclaimers:
* 30 missions isn't a statistically valid sample size
* this was done mainly for grins and giggles
* I got tired of recording bounties per mission, so about halfway through I was just recording the accumulated bounty ticks.
* Yes, I, and everyone else, are aware of the time it takes to convert LP into isk. This is why I call it "isk in generated assets per hour" instead of "isk per hour."

I used a MAR II because a LAR II requires Astronautics Rigging at V (CPU is tight.) A couple of missions got the shield down to 30% (and "Cut-throat Competition" has a bit too much DPS for my liking, so I skip that one.)
[Machariel, Level - 3]
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Warden II x4
Hobgoblin II x5

Implants:
5% dmg: ss-905
5% dmg: LP1005
10% warp speed: ws-610

Warp speed: 5.18 AU/s
Guns: 1005 DPS Range: 4.8km+69km

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kalkoken Inkunen
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-05-18 22:24:06 UTC
Very interesting study! I have two questions.

How much ISK per hour just in bounties did you make or how much were the ticks?

What's the purpose of doing level 3's in a Machariel when it's fully capable of doing level 4's? Are you making more ISK blitzing 3's because you can do them so fast?
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#3 - 2014-05-19 03:18:50 UTC
What Lps are you considering @ 2k isk each? Most Lps are down around 1k isk/lp right now. Even SOE is starting to stablize around 1500
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#4 - 2014-05-19 04:20:10 UTC
xPredat0rz wrote:
What Lps are you considering @ 2k isk each? Most Lps are down around 1k isk/lp right now. Even SOE is starting to stablize around 1500



This is not true at all. Sister's Cor Probes are (as always) well above 2k isk per LP, as are virtue implants and probe launchers. And many Thukker (Trust Partners) items are well above 2k as well.
Gh0stBust3rs
Templars HIghsec
Stellar Fusion
#5 - 2014-05-19 04:37:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
xPredat0rz wrote:
What Lps are you considering @ 2k isk each? Most Lps are down around 1k isk/lp right now. Even SOE is starting to stablize around 1500



This is not true at all. Sister's Cor Probes are (as always) well above 2k isk per LP, as are virtue implants and probe launchers. And many Thukker (Trust Partners) items are well above 2k as well.



Other then the probes and Launcher and maybe the ships the rest dont see enough volume to be worth the effort. Very few people run around with a full virtue set.(Worm Hole people and some cov ops alts)


So yes on paper your LP might be worth 2k isk or 1800 isk. Most of it isnt.

Trifle Donier
Sham Rocks Incorporated
#6 - 2014-05-19 04:59:09 UTC
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
[quote=Jenn aSide][quote=xPredat0rz]Other then the probes and Launcher and maybe the ships the rest dont see enough volume to be worth the effort. Very few people run around with a full virtue set.(Worm Hole people and some cov ops alts)

So yes on paper your LP might be worth 2k isk or 1800 isk. Most of it isnt.


You're wrong, you can easily make over 2k isk/lp selling into buy orders, so you can easily check beforehand what you can sell and how much. (spoiler alert: you can't mission fast enough to dry up the demand, even if you're converting to virtue implants)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2014-05-19 07:45:23 UTC
Problem on 2k/lp calculations. If everyone does it, the isk/lp tanks.
Thus only a limited number of players can ever benefit from LP at that rate. Since if the majority start to try and get that LP, it levels down towards the 1k mark.
Kirisame Katsuo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-05-19 08:42:27 UTC
but I cant see sentry's nerf incoming.

やれやれだぜ。 WE. CAN. NOT. PLAY. KANCOLLE.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2014-05-19 08:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Problem on 2k/lp calculations. If everyone does it, the isk/lp tanks.
Thus only a limited number of players can ever benefit from LP at that rate. Since if the majority start to try and get that LP, it levels down towards the 1k mark.


Its been like this for years, its not going to be changing any time soon.

As for why level 3 missions, that might be my fault. I have been trying to get a battleship (a raven) to beat his 50mil/hr isktar for a while and when the new mach landed in our laps there was a brainwave. Its mainly for giggles between a few of us who just love thinking up new and interesting ways to adapt ships.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#10 - 2014-05-19 09:21:02 UTC
A few points to make, sorted by topic.

Fitting questions:
1: If most of the missions had the shield down to 30%, would you not say that a damage control would be a more viable, less tight and tankier setup on the mach?
2: If going for 3 Warp rigs, why not 3 t2? they still fit quite easily into the calibration, and each is 5% better for a total increase of ~60% speed vs ~49%, an 11% increase, which translates into yet higher isk/hr.
3:if flying on sisi, why not full faction to run site times further down?

Background info:
1:What corp and space were you missioning in for this test?
2: What are the security connections and other mission runner skill levels at for this test?
3: what is the ishtar fit discussed, or is that in the origional discussion?

Sanity check:
1: did you have fun?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2014-05-19 10:01:40 UTC
Isktar should be in the original thread.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#12 - 2014-05-19 12:32:09 UTC
Trifle Donier wrote:
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
[quote=Jenn aSide][quote=xPredat0rz]Other then the probes and Launcher and maybe the ships the rest dont see enough volume to be worth the effort. Very few people run around with a full virtue set.(Worm Hole people and some cov ops alts)

So yes on paper your LP might be worth 2k isk or 1800 isk. Most of it isnt.


You're wrong, you can easily make over 2k isk/lp selling into buy orders, so you can easily check beforehand what you can sell and how much. (spoiler alert: you can't mission fast enough to dry up the demand, even if you're converting to virtue implants)


+1 to Trifle Donier. Yay someone gets it.

I've been doing Sisters (insert "doing YOUR sister" joke here) for 7 years (and thukkers for 4), under more than one set of exploration mechanics, before and after wormholes and way before the ships were a gleam in some DEVs eye.

The Sisters LP store is the most understood thing in this whole mission running game. Even with the changes to how players retain probes and more and more people SPEWING millions upon millions upon million of sisters LP in in 6 separate systems :the 3 high sec lvl 4s, the high sec lvl3 (look up Simela Solar system on Dotlan maps and see how many npcs get killed there lol)+ Aeschee and X-7, The gear from that store has never taken a dive below certain set conversion points.

IT CAN'T take a dive because it (the sister's LPstore) is the only source of such gear for a major meta-profession (exploration) that not only sees demand from losses (both pvp and pve), but also new players using the gear as a short cut while training.

Mainly people don't understand the insane amounts of demand behind the items, demand that withstood the mission running community's shift to doing Sisters missions en mass when the SOE ships were announce. I don't know how much more proof some people need to understand that their economic theories are wrong and incomplete when talking about the sister's LP store (or the Thukker LP store, or the faction warfare LP stores or the other non-SOE pirate LP stores for that matter).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#13 - 2014-05-19 13:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Edit, wrong topic. DOH!

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-05-19 14:18:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
As for why level 3 missions, that might be my fault. I have been trying to get a battleship (a raven) to beat his 50mil/hr isktar for a while and when the new mach landed in our laps there was a brainwave. Its mainly for giggles between a few of us who just love thinking up new and interesting ways to adapt ships.


Nice to see it proven and something worthwhile come out of that thread Cool
stoicfaux
#15 - 2014-05-20 02:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Kalkoken Inkunen wrote:
Very interesting study! I have two questions.

How much ISK per hour just in bounties did you make or how much were the ticks?

You can see that in A75:A81.
Liquid ISK 19.1M per hour
Salvage ISK 0M per hour
Loot ISK 22.9M per hour
LP ISK 44.8M per hour
Ammo Costs -0.3M per hour
Other Expenses 0M per hour
Total Assets 86.6M per hour


Quote:
What's the purpose of doing level 3's in a Machariel when it's fully capable of doing level 4's?

Grins and giggles mainly. Once upon a time, in one of a slew of "nerf level 4s!" threads, someone stated:
"Level 1 mission... 2 million per hour.
Level 2 mission... 4 million per hour.
Level 3 mission... 8 million per hour.
Level 4 Mission... 60 million per hour"

Needless to say, the gauntlet was thrown down. Firstly, I ran level 3s in an Ishtar which had battleship DPS with battleship range. Needless to say, 50M+ isk/hour is more than 8M isk/hour. Then, with the Rubicon warp speed changes (and the drone scope rig nerf) I ran a warp rigged Ishtar in level 3s.

At this point it was clear that warp speed has a non-trivial impact on mission efficiency. Baltec admitted to his RHML Raven fetish with the theory that if you want to beat the Ishtar, you'll need to match the Ishtar's warp speed, and then beat its DPS, which will require an actual battleship, then the Mach getting a warps speed buff, then altafk pointing out the Mach - Level 3 synergy, etc..


Quote:
Are you making more ISK blitzing 3's because you can do them so fast?

That's three questions. I was able to average ~110Misk/hour in assets in a blitzing and non-blitzing Vargur.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2014-05-20 02:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
James Baboli wrote:
A few points to make, sorted by topic.

Fitting questions:
1: If most of the missions had the shield down to 30%, would you not say that a damage control would be a more viable, less tight and tankier setup on the mach?

Only a couple of missions got down to 30%. Most missions never went below 50%, i.e. you can buffer tank most level 3s. (Except for "Cut Throat Competition," in which I wound up getting into hull twice, and promptly decided never to run it again in the Mach. (Plus, it's a pain to blitz.))

Quote:
2: If going for 3 Warp rigs, why not 3 t2? they still fit quite easily into the calibration, and each is 5% better for a total increase of ~60% speed vs ~49%, an 11% increase, which translates into yet higher isk/hr.

Cost versus benefit. Three warp 1 rigs puts the Mach at 5.2 AU/s. Three warp 2 rigs would be 5.7 AU/s. Now look at the warp speed chart from the dev blog. Do you see enough difference between the 5.0 and the 5.5 warp speed columns to justify T2 rig costs?

Quote:
3:if flying on sisi, why not full faction to run site times further down?

a) Faction equipment isn't seeded, you need to already have it or buy from a player. b) Cost versus benefit. c) I prefer to avoid excessive bling.

Quote:
Background info:
1:What corp and space were you missioning in for this test?
2: What are the security connections and other mission runner skill levels at for this test?
3: what is the ishtar fit discussed, or is that in the origional discussion?

Caldari space is all I'm going to say.
Social LP skill at V, otherwise IV. Gunnery at 5/4. Support skills at V. MWD skills at IV.

Quote:
Sanity check:
1: did you have fun?

The words "spreadsheets" and "fun" are redundant.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#17 - 2014-05-20 14:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
stoicfaux wrote:
Once upon a time, I blitzed level 3s in an Ishtar to see how much you could make an hour (which was ~50M isk in assets per hour at 2,000 isk/LP.) One thing to come of this was that the Ishtar spent 33% of the time traveling even with a 5.67 AU/s warp speed. Original Ishtar discussion here.

The upcoming Kronos (summer 2014) release has some interesting changes:
* the Machariel will be given a warp speed bonus (of 3.0 AU/s base (up from 2.0))
* sentries will be nerfed somewhat
* warp speed rigs will be stacking penalized

After some idle speculation about the impact of warp speed on mission efficiency, namely that travel time does have an impact misison income, afkalt posts "Actually, wouldn't a super fast Mach rival the raven or Ishtar for L3 work? It pops little stuff so damned fast."

So, I hopped onto sisi and ran 30 missions in a Machariel setup for DPS and warp speed. (Fitting below.)

Googledocs spreadsheet with the Mach mission data.

Results for Mach:
~86M isk/hour in assets @ 2,000 isk/LP
Average mission time: 3m29s
Average travel time: 1m33s
Average in mission time: 1m55s

Average # jumps to mission: 0.33
Average Distance traveled to mission: 19.79 (round trip)

Versus Ishtar:
~53M isk/hour in assets @ 2,000 isk/LP
Average mission time: 5m03s
Average travel time: 1m41s
Average in mission time: 3m22s

Average # jumps to mission: 0.45
Average Distance traveled to mission: 22.65 (round trip)


The takeaway is that the Mach's additional DPS makes a difference. (Or the randomly chosen missions favored the Mach heavily.)


Assumptions/Disclaimers:
* 30 missions isn't a statistically valid sample size
* this was done mainly for grins and giggles
* I got tired of recording bounties per mission, so about halfway through I was just recording the accumulated bounty ticks.
* Yes, I, and everyone else, are aware of the time it takes to convert LP into isk. This is why I call it "isk in generated assets per hour" instead of "isk per hour."

I used a MAR II because a LAR II requires Astronautics Rigging at V (CPU is tight.) A couple of missions got the shield down to 30% (and "Cut-throat Competition" has a bit too much DPS for my liking, so I skip that one.)
[Machariel, Level - 3]
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Warden II x4
Hobgoblin II x5

Implants:
5% dmg: ss-905
5% dmg: LP1005
10% warp speed: ws-610

Warp speed: 5.18 AU/s
Guns: 1005 DPS Range: 4.8km+69km


Nice.

Still the mach is a Battleship with BS sized guns and even though it insta-pops everything in lvl 3s even at the edge of fall of, i do wonder if a Cynabal would be more effective. Will try to hop on SiSi tonight.

[Cynabal, L3 Baby Mach]
Corpii A-Type Small Armor Repairer
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Auto Targeting System II

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Same kind of +5 implants as the mach.


Less than 500 mil even with some pimpage in the mods.
Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-05-20 19:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Medai Kesrith
The [Kronos] Machariel will be the King of the Hill for any sort of LvL 4 mission but especially for blitzing missions. Seriously test it for yourself and check how many minutes per hour you are wasting in warp with a BS and then compare it with a Cruiser. You will be shocked.
Check this
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65418/1/numbers_table.png

and read this for more details
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337254&find=unread


About BS sized guns, there is no other ship that can compete with the Machariel in killing Cruisers. Read the link above about tracking and you will be shocked again.


About LP/h and ISK/LP and that is pre patch for LvL 4 blitzing missions:
In a system with a real sec status of 0,755 my average LP/h with a Machariel is ~48k
In a system with a real sec status of 0,604 my average LP/h with a Machariel is ~57k
My overall average ISK/h with 3k ISK/LP is ~200m and no i'm not joking. The 200m includes the LP+Bounty+Mission Rewards+Loot* at ALL V.
*Loot, i only loot the Damsel, Mordus Folly Part 2 and Enemies Abound Part 1. 90% of all Missions are not worth looting at all, even with the tractor thingie.

I can sell any amount of LP for about ~3k ISK. It is simple, check the market, do the math, fly for the corp which has the BPC in its LP store... profit.
stoicfaux
#19 - 2014-05-21 00:57:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Still the mach is a Battleship with BS sized guns and even though it insta-pops everything in lvl 3s even at the edge of fall of, i do wonder if a Cynabal would be more effective. Will try to hop on SiSi tonight.

[Cynabal, L3 Baby Mach]
...
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
...

You'll want an MWD. And, TBH, probably a MJD for many missions (once it's available.) I'm kicking myself for not recording the engagement distances of the NPCs. I was waaaaaay into falloff for a lot of those level 3s.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#20 - 2014-05-21 06:28:39 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
.

Only a couple of missions got down to 30%. Most missions never went below 50%, i.e. you can buffer tank most level 3s. (Except for "Cut Throat Competition," in which I wound up getting into hull twice, and promptly decided never to run it again in the Mach. (Plus, it's a pain to blitz.))

Thats why I was wondering if the across the board resist boost from the DCU might be better.

Quote:
2: If going for 3 Warp rigs, why not 3 t2? they still fit quite easily into the calibration, and each is 5% better for a total increase of ~60% speed vs ~49%, an 11% increase, which translates into yet higher isk/hr.

Cost versus benefit. Three warp 1 rigs puts the Mach at 5.2 AU/s. Three warp 2 rigs would be 5.7 AU/s. Now look at the warp speed chart from the dev blog. Do you see enough difference between the 5.0 and the 5.5 warp speed columns to justify T2 rig costs? [/quote]
I did, but I am space rich, and impatient.

Quote:
Quote:
Sanity check:
1: did you have fun

The words "spreadsheets" and "fun" are redundant.

Good to see you haven't become a total borg.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
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