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The bane of the "One Medium Slot" ship
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Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2011-12-02 21:48:49 UTC
Even with the changes they made to destroyers this last update I don't think they are going to make destroyers that useful for most situations and it might be worth looking at giving all of the destroyers another slot to make them a little more powerful.

The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable.

I use my Retribution to build up Standings when forced to run lv.1s and lv.2s for agents and that is about it, would like to be able to dust it off for pvp at some point.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-12-02 21:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Norris Packard wrote:
The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable.


Would you fly a Retri in gangs if it did 1.5x times its current dps? That would be 275 dps at 22km with Scorch in a damage and range oriented fit.
Kesshisan
#23 - 2011-12-02 22:31:23 UTC
This just in:

Some ships are better for PvP than other ships.
Delphineas Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-12-02 22:36:59 UTC
Sevgei Ertekin wrote:
One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too.


Anyone arguing to buff ships with one medium slot while ignoring Cormorants one low is stupid.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2011-12-02 22:39:44 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Norris Packard wrote:
The Retribution, and for that matter all AFs, needs to be looked at closely. For one they have not yet given the AFs their 4th bonus that they should have been given ages ago. But with the Retribution it is worse off than most being stuck with that lack of a second med slot and that should be addressed. A 4H/2M/5L slot layout would be a great improvement and still give the ship a unique slot layout and with a decent 4th bonus could be made flyable.


Would you fly a Retri in gangs if it did 1.5x times its current dps? That would be 275 dps at 22km with Scorch in a damage and range oriented fit.


I still personally cannot justify it over almost any of the other ship that I can fly even if it did receive that damage boost. I normally do not fly in larger frig gangs where the they would need to have a frig with the heavy firepower and most gangs that I fly in use our frigate hulls for scouting and pointing. Without that ability any other frig hull becomes a better choice. Alternatively I can fly a shield buffer Omen and get more firepower out of it (but lose the good tracking) at that range with similar speeds (still takes a hit on agility) and have that needed point on the Omen.

I also do a great deal of solo work and not having that second mid slot even if they boosted damage makes this ship a non-viable alternative to any other frigate out there.

The one success that I did have in a Retribution solo was kinda on accident when I was attacked by a group of 4 frigates they having the numbers thought that I, a non-pvp ship, would be easy pickings. I was able to kill two of them before they even got into my armor and the other two bailed out (would have been really nice to have had that 2nd med slot right about then...).
Maritza Cruz
Hizzy Hizzy Hippos
#26 - 2011-12-02 22:58:37 UTC
Itworksfine

few from yesterday.

just have to know how to fly it.
Drazzz
Sleepless Premonition
#27 - 2011-12-03 00:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Drazzz
Delphineas Fumimasa wrote:
Sevgei Ertekin wrote:
One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too.


Anyone arguing to buff ships with one medium slot while ignoring Cormorants one low is stupid.


I seem to be missing the issue with the Cormorant? It's a Caldari ship. Caldari use shields. Shields mods go in mid slots. Where is the issue? I agree with the OP. These 2 ships need a second mid slot. I don't care what other ship uses the same layout. If every other ship in the game can use a point and a prop mod it just seems balanced IMO.
Songbird
#28 - 2011-12-03 01:48:46 UTC
Sevgei Ertekin wrote:
One medium slot is just dumb. Anyone arguing otherwise, is too.



Sevgei said it best.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#29 - 2011-12-03 02:49:11 UTC
If the coercer had two midslots, it wouldn't be nearly as hilarious when you killed someone with one anymore. Don't nerf humor in my EVE!
Khrage
#30 - 2011-12-03 21:01:31 UTC
stop asking. get a ceptor pilot to fly with you. the coecer and retri are great for pve and work fine in small hull sized fleets as gank.
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#31 - 2011-12-03 21:05:03 UTC
Khrage wrote:
stop asking. get a ceptor pilot to fly with you. the coecer and retri are great for pve and work fine in small hull sized fleets as gank.


Posts like this make me wish there was a dislike button.
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-12-03 21:15:37 UTC
They can still work with max dps, plenty of people thinks you have a point and don´t bother to warp off.
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#33 - 2011-12-03 21:17:16 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
They can still work with max dps, plenty of people thinks you have a point and don´t bother to warp off.


Minority
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-12-03 21:24:29 UTC
Yes, of course. One med slot is hard to live with.

In fact this ship has tactical advantage - very strong tank. In a fleet of cruisers a retribution may look odd and draw enemy fire, which will save time. Retribution can be very strong if enemy goes for smallest by mistake. I.e. bait for the unaware.

Coercer, what do you not like? It is not meant to tackle, not meant to tank. Its tracking is abnormal, literally ignites all enemy frigates (all except stealth bombers). If enemy pilot is stupid enough to go under the guns of a destroyer, he goes belly up. Else, destroyers keep enemy tacklers, ceptors and drones away. Nothing to complain about.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Khrage
#35 - 2011-12-04 00:04:10 UTC
David Clausewitz wrote:
Posts like this make me wish there was a dislike button.


from reading your other responses you would dislike everything that gives a reason for not adding the 2nd mid slots.

simply you don't need 2 mid slots for everything. yes solo pvp is very hard without both a point and prop, but the ships are still balanced. they excel in any situation where they don't need the point. especially when it comes to the archetype of amarr of being simple gank and tank, that's what the coercer and retri do best. and in any fleet situation when you aren't tackle and it is your job to do nothing but melt hulls, everyone would trade mid slots for low slots, no matter what the ship. in fact now that i think about it, i wouldn't mind MORE ships to have just one mid slot to pack on more lows. they are dps ships, not tackle ships. that is what they are made for.

and +1 to Opertone

Opertone wrote:
Yes, of course. One med slot is hard to live with.

In fact this ship has tactical advantage - very strong tank. In a fleet of cruisers a retribution may look odd and draw enemy fire, which will save time. Retribution can be very strong if enemy goes for smallest by mistake. I.e. bait for the unaware.

Coercer, what do you not like? It is not meant to tackle, not meant to tank. Its tracking is abnormal, literally ignites all enemy frigates (all except stealth bombers). If enemy pilot is stupid enough to go under the guns of a destroyer, he goes belly up. Else, destroyers keep enemy tacklers, ceptors and drones away. Nothing to complain about.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-12-04 00:52:05 UTC
You could almost say that 1 mid slot ships are fun to play with because they have only 1 mid slot. I get that having a point is almost always mandatory. Running in a frig fleet though? Nah. Running in nano fleet where you're just there for close range frig protection? Nah.

Sitting on the warp in of a FW plex with a arty trasher? NAH!!!

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2011-12-04 01:22:26 UTC
The retribution more then makes up for its lack of mids with very good dps at very good range and with a good tank. Its got lots of lows, lots of guns, a utility high. People who want to change the ship should just get a different ship imo - the retri and the coer do their jobs as fleet fire support very well.

I frankly don't understand why people want to standardize. If the retri got 2 mids, then it will still not be enough.
Firestorm Delta
Aphotic Machina
#38 - 2011-12-04 04:19:22 UTC
I can understand the people who want that second mid slot, I can also understand people who say the cormorant should get an extra low. I've flown every destroyer but the thrasher at some point in time, and having just one slot in an area bothers me to no end. But I won't argue with CCP to change it because as said ships are each designed with a purpose. If you can't fit a point and a prop mod then obviously soloing pvp isn't that ships purpose. Not all ships work good solo, if you can make them work solo then good for you, but if you can't then get a group.

Its not uncommon in games that involve space combat of some kind to have ships that are used for the sole purpose of screening larger ships. In fact most games that involve any form of strategy tend to have some kind of unit that does this. What do you know, the destroyer looks to be a perfect match for this.

Also there is one problem with giving the destroyers any more slots, then we start having too many slots to go around, and we end up with either op destroyers, or they all end up looking the same. If the races become cookie cutters of each other then whats the point of having different races?

Well that rant went a bit longer then I planned on. Either way take my words with a grain of salt as you probably know more about pvp then I do.
Forum Chav
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-12-04 10:14:03 UTC
"...So that was just a combination of ad hominem and straw man and it completely ignored my legitimate concerns that you either failed to comprehend as a valid response to your argument or just refused to acknowledge as legitimate concerns (which they are). ..."

Lmao. You used to work for the Reagan Administration, yeah?
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#40 - 2011-12-04 10:23:04 UTC
Even before the buff, I had tons of fun blowing frigs to pieces in FW fleets with my Coercer. It's not a solo boat, and if you have to solo, make sure you kill stuff before it has a chance to warp off. :P

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka