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CCP isn't it about time you consolidated the missile skills?

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2014-05-15 04:55:10 UTC
Battlingbean wrote:
No. Why does everything have to be the same?

It's not about 'Being the same' but about missiles not being unfairly disadvantaged SP wise.
The whole 'advantage' the missile SP tree had was given to gunnery over a year ago, in that you no longer require smaller spec to move to higher levels of spec in Gunnery. While the downsides missiles have of split training still apply.
So moving missiles to Small Missile Systems, Medium Missile Systems, Large Missile Systems, Capital Missile Systems would make sense since they no longer gain any special advantage for their split.
Dinokin Askiras
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-05-15 05:06:19 UTC
Haruko Togenada wrote:
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
+1 here
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-05-15 05:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Battlingbean wrote:
No. Why does everything have to be the same?



So ccp can bring back needing small t2 spec 4 to get med t2, and med t2 spec 4 to get large t2 again for turrets?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#24 - 2014-05-15 05:24:10 UTC
Blasters require Motion Prediction, rails require Sharpshooter.

Oh god.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-05-15 06:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Riot Girl wrote:
Blasters require Motion Prediction, rails require Sharpshooter.



True, but.....

Here we can get a good debate. Like I said earlier missiles don't have the support skill req's up front as per ccp. However, if certain skills not maxed out missiles tend to suck (well more so). So while the missile user skips a level or here....they aren't getting an edge. They are actually screwing themselves. As missiles hit with less potency. The debate here being does it matter if ccp says do this level by force (turrets) or by need (not having missiles suck, more).


Put in more funny way.

My boss pays me to do a job. He asks for something it is done. I do tasks A-Z I was hired to do, I keep paychecks coming in. This would be ccp turret needs for support 5's.

My wife tells me to do something. I am under no concrete legally binding obligation like with my boss. I can tell her to pound sand. However....that may result in a few bad things happening to me. This would be missiles not needing support 5's as much. No they aren't needed...but as many a smarter husband has learned when a wife asks can you do this? the correct answer is yes, dear. Its not a question most times....its more of a very polite way of giving an order lol.


edit: fwiw I am x trained all races all subcap weapons. And I was large t2 turrets under old scheme. I did my pain and lived and moved on. Now if one day this happened....I would not kick some free sp out of the bed tbh.
Mario Putzo
#26 - 2014-05-15 06:29:28 UTC
No eff that! I have rockets trained to 0 and Torps at V leave me alone and stop making me be like everyone else!

(seriously though this should have been changed long ago.)
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#27 - 2014-05-15 07:08:35 UTC
In fact, the opposite should happen. Gunnery skills should be split and the training times unified. There are set cases where only one type of turret/launcher needs to be trained. With gunnery you have no choice but to train something you may not want. That is a disadvantage missiles does not have.

A quote from a former post on mine:
Quote:
There is one drastically major change that will hit TQ with Rubicon: gunnery training no longer needs the previous sizes of guns trained to V to get the next sized up T2 guns. This does bring the gunnery training times more in line with missile training times. However, this creates a new unbalance: it doesn't fix the issue that the base missile skills take twice as long to train as the base skills of a single type of turret. I have some numbers below:

Quote:
Some by the numbers:
For equivalent effectiveness of small turrets you need to train:
Rockets (256k SP) + Light Missiles(512k SP) = 768k SP - small projectile turret (256k SP) = 512k UNNEEDED SP

For equivalent effectiveness of medium turrets you need to train:
Heavy Missiles (768k SP) + Heavy Assault Missiles (768k SP) = 1536k SP - Medium projectile turret (768k SP) = 768k UNNEEDED SP

For equivalent effectiveness of large turrets you need to train:
Cruise Missiles (1280k SP) + Torpedos (1024k) = 2304k SP - large projectile turret (1280k SP) = 1024k UNNEEDED SP

Totals: Missile Launcher Skill to V is 4608k SP and Gunnery Turret skill to V is 2304k SP. Each Gunnery Turret SP is worth 2 Missile Launcher SP.

Total up to this point is 2,304,000 unneeded SP just to be as effective as a someone who trained a each level of turret skill to V.
At 2250 SP/hr (remapped Perception/Willpower with no implants) that is 42.66 days worth of additional unneeded training.
At 2700 SP/hr (Remapped Perception/Willpower with +5 implants) that is 35.55 days worth of additional unneeded training.


The numbers made sense previously as missiles allowed quicker specialization, but slower generalization. Turrets offered better generalization and slower specialization. Now that turrets get the generalization and specialization it would be nice for missiles to join them. If you could unify the training times missiles and turrets that would finally make these changes complete and restore balance.

Also, if it is possible to decouple the gunnery skills at the same time that would be awesome. So in other words, break small projectile turret in to small autocannon turret and small artillery turret each that takes half as long to train as the unified skill did. This would help people that only want autocaonnon skills because they have no use for artillery skills or the other way around while not penalizing if you want to train both. Both of these changes combined would make gunnery and missiles nearly equal.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#28 - 2014-05-15 13:34:09 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
In fact, the opposite should happen. Gunnery skills should be split and the training times unified. There are set cases where only one type of turret/launcher needs to be trained. With gunnery you have no choice but to train something you may not want. That is a disadvantage missiles does not have.


I'm not sure I'd call it a disadvantage, and tbt I dont see what the issue is with requiring a general skill (ie small projectiles) to a certain level to be able to train say medium projectiles, and tbt consolodating missiles would actualy help newer players, because anyone coming into eve WILL expect missile training to be similar to training for guns, ie small xyz to level 5 to gain the specialisations etc.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Small Missile Systems, Medium Missile Systems, Large Missile Systems, Capital Missile Systems


The reason I suggested the skills be named small launchers etc is to avoid ANY potential confusion especialy for new players, because atm in the small missile catagory you have rockets and light MISSILES, then you have heavy missiles, heavy assualt missiles, so the general skill reflects the name/type of the weapon systems.
Victor Terona
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-05-15 15:01:10 UTC
Needs to happen +1
Nano Sito
#30 - 2014-05-15 17:18:06 UTC
+1
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#31 - 2014-05-17 13:46:14 UTC
I do like the fact the mordus ships that are coming are getting increased missile velocity, it was something thats been suggested off and on for ages as a partial fix to the issues missiles have in general.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#32 - 2014-05-17 21:06:12 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
I do like the fact the mordus ships that are coming are getting increased missile velocity, it was something thats been suggested off and on for ages as a partial fix to the issues missiles have in general.

one thing I've also never understood eve wise with missiles, is after your ship fires them, why the missiles then require the ships guidance and not rely on their own? ie why cant people first a volley, warp to a perch, fire another volley, warp etc? :)
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#33 - 2014-05-18 07:01:50 UTC
Plus another thing I suggested to ccp with cruise missiles was to use a fighter base, but give it a limited "lifespan" as it where :)
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#34 - 2014-05-18 15:17:57 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
I do like the fact the mordus ships that are coming are getting increased missile velocity, it was something thats been suggested off and on for ages as a partial fix to the issues missiles have in general.

one thing I've also never understood eve wise with missiles, is after your ship fires them, why the missiles then require the ships guidance and not rely on their own? ie why cant people first a volley, warp to a perch, fire another volley, warp etc? :)


Reason I pointed this out is we have missiles already that are self guided capable, yet it seems odd that what is supposed to be the future they dont, they have to rely on the ships guidance system....
Adolph Weltschmerz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-05-18 15:32:07 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
+1 here
Minty Aroma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-05-18 15:42:23 UTC
Just no. Why does the majority on F&I seem to think that balanced = exactly the frikken same! I'm glad that missile skills are trained differently to gunnery skills as it sets them apart.
Lusty Muffins
Throw More Dots
#37 - 2014-05-19 20:10:35 UTC
bump, please redo missile skill progression much like turrets
Sorana Bonzari
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-05-19 20:19:10 UTC
Lusty Muffins wrote:
bump, please redo missile skill progression much like turrets



I'm personally on the fence because a good point is brought up early in this post talking about the SP sink we call gunnery. Raw SP wise are these 2 skill groups take roughly the equal amount of SP to master the similar class ships?

Can someone post some hard numbers to prove or disprove this. Until then its not going to happen.
Amalasan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-06-05 04:18:13 UTC
+1
Sigras
Conglomo
#40 - 2014-06-05 13:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
No, I would rather return to making large *** specialization require medium *** specialization for guns so everything isnt the same in eve anymore.

That way guns are faster to train all sizes, but missiles are faster to train the size you want.
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